# "Race doesn't exist" and affirmative action: Can't have cake and eat it too **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2016, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466 "2016-07-21T03:09:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/101 "2016-07-28T12:39:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, God knows none of those black people could possibly be smart enough to become doctors on their own merit. :rolleyes: I must have missed it - where did someone post that no black people could ever become doctors on their own merit? Maybe I misunderstood you - is this what _you_ are claiming? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/102 "2016-07-28T13:33:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I must have missed it - where did someone post that no black people could ever become doctors on their own merit? > > Maybe I misunderstood you - is this what _you_ are claiming? > > Regards, > Shodan **CP** said > [@](#): > > What is unknown is the extent to which these average source pool differences in genes drives average outcome differences at a genetic level rather than a nurturing level. > To date, average outcome differences for scholastic achievement remain among US self-identified groups. These outcome differences are not erased by accounting for income or parental education. US blacks from high-income families woefully underperform their socioeconomic peers, performing barely on par with poverty-stricken whites. > > Until we are able to erase outcome differences by groups for the kind of academic standards which affect social outcomes, it seems prudent to retain affirmative action. Many professional careers–and indeed many ordinary jobs–require some kind of screening examination for entrance to the job or ongoing promotions. In the end, it does not really matter whether persistence of outcome differences on those exams is nature or nurture. Unless I’m misreading this, this is stating that black people underperform for reasons of “nature or nurture” unconnected to socioeconomic factors, the implication being that the reason for the underperformance being something intrinsic to black people (although **CP** stops shy of absolutely claiming a genetic cause here). Followed by the paragraph I quoted above, the conclusion I’m drawing is that **CP** is saying that black people can’t compete with white people due to this intrinsic intellectual (or similar) inferiority and thus would almost never be able to get into good medical schools on their own merits without the “boost” of AA. If you have a different interpretation of what he wrote - or if he would care to clarify - I’d be interested to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/103 "2016-07-28T13:45:12Z")
Just to clarify - nobody (except you) said “none of those black people could possibly be smart enough to become doctors on their own merit”, and your allegation that he did say it is false. Correct? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/104 "2016-07-28T13:52:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just to clarify - nobody (except you) said “none of those black people could possibly be smart enough to become doctors on their own merit”, and your allegation that he did say it is false. Correct? > > Regards, > Shodan I didn’t allege he said it. I alleged it was a implication that followed directly from his statements. If you’re having trouble understanding the difference, I could try explaining it again. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/105 "2016-07-28T14:33:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just to clarify - nobody (except you) said “none of those black people could possibly be smart enough to become doctors on their own merit”, and your allegation that he did say it is false. Correct? So, just to clarify, according to you, **Gyrate** actually said that **CP** actually said that “none of those black people could possibly be smart enough to become doctors on their own merit”. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/106 "2016-07-28T15:57:20Z")
He now claims it was a logical inference from what **CP** posted. It wasn’t, but that’s what **Gyrate** said. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/107 "2016-07-28T17:25:00Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > So you said "Coroners can sometimes tell a “race’ from just the bones.” > And that article says “ **In the absence of DNA, can you really determine race from a jawbone? Probably not**.” > So you said "Coroners can sometimes tell a “race’ from just the bones.” > And that article says “\*\*races do not exist in the biological sense and anthropologists prefer the term ancestry. \*\*” > > OK, so you believe that there are five races. > > So, what race are Indonesians? What race are Asian Indians? What race are Ethiopians? What race are Russians? > > But now you tell us that the races are all “based upon social or self-identify considerations”, except for American Indians. > > Please explain to us how a race based upon social or self-identify considerations can contain border cases, or how someone can be mixed? If someone self-identifies as Black doesn’t that make them Black regardless of “mixing”? > > Are you admitting that they _can’t_ be identified to \>95% certainty? > > If they can’t be identified with \>95% certainty, then in what sense are they scientific? 95% is the default for scientific testability. > > Cite please. Show us the evidence that people who meet the legal definition of native American can be biologically identified with close to 100% certainty. > > Show us your evidence that people who self identify can be biologically identified with a very high level of certainty. > > I have no idea what point you think you are making here. A coroner using a social construct to inform social decisions is not evidence that race has any sort of biological basis or utility. It is perfect demonstration of race having social validity despite having no scientific basis. > > Can anyone in the peanut gallery work out what point Dr Deth is trying to make here? Because I am bamaboozled. > > . From just a jawbone, likely not. But from a complete skeleton, it has happened. Yes, they “_prefer_ the term ancestry”, just a different label. Would it make your bamaboozled mind happier to use "ancestry? Not I, the\*\* US Government.\*\* Ask the US Census, or just read the damn cite, which makes it pretty clear. Because one 'self identifies" \*as \*“mixed”, how else?😕 I never made any claim about 95%, you’re just putting words in my mouth. aka “making shit up”. They can be _legally_ identified with 100% certainly. Not biologically identified, why do you think that? Why do _you_ think Amerinds can be biologically identified with close to 100% certainty? 😕 People who self identify can be \*self \*identified with a very high level of certainty. I never claimed anything esle. How does one get “social” from just bones? Isnt some degree of Anatomy and Biology going on there? You are quite often “bamaboozled”, it appears. It’s kinda sad. Have you seen a Doctor… no… a sociologist? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/108 "2016-07-28T17:26:33Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Wall of text, but once again, he refuses to answer my simple questions. “Loaded” questions are hardly “simple”. Even from someone who claims to be “bamaboozled”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/109 "2016-07-28T20:03:26Z")
Please explain how “How many races do _you_, _personally_, think there are?” is a “loaded question”. One you’ve still not answered, BTW. Also, learn how to split up the goddamn quote boxes, your replies are nigh unreadable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2016, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/110 "2016-07-28T20:14:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Please explain how “How many races do _you_, _personally_, think there are?” is a “loaded question”. > > One you’ve still not answered, BTW. Well, since he wont accept any answer but "one, yes, it’s loaded and biased. And of course you know that. I did. I quoted the US Census. What else has meaning? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/111 "2016-07-29T00:04:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Oh yay - **Chief Pedant** is here. > No it doesn’t, but why let that stop your usual suspiciously careful muddling of phenotype, genotype and subculture? Batten down the hatches; the Walls of Text are coming. > > I don’t have time for Round #3,742 of The Race Realist Show right now, but didn’t want to let this gem go: > **(by CP:)** > _We should retain self-identified “race” and use it to implement race-based affirmative action. This is not “having your cake and eating it too.” Instead, it is a recognition that this is the only path we have ever found to outcome parity. Without it, for example, there would be almost no black physicians in the United States, and certainly none from our most competitive academic institutions._ > > Yes, God knows none of those black people could possibly be smart enough to become doctors on their own merit. :rolleyes: [Here.](http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_graduate_admissions_test.html) _“If these institutions were to choose their students solely on test scores and college grades, it is clear that in the intense competition for places at medical schools in the United States, African Americans would be at a severe disadvantage in relation to the highest scoring whites. Under these circumstances no blacks would be admitted to the nation’s most selective schools of medicine.”_ While I commend your frustration, I speak from experience of many years on a Medical School Admissions Committee. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/112 "2016-07-29T00:10:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Actually, although I don’t think this was the way **CP** meant it, it’s perfectly possible to justify race-based affirmative action even if there’s no genetic component to racially disparate outcomes at all. In a historically and vestigially (and in many cases still actively) racist society, you don’t necessarily need any genetic difference in brain function to explain why a historically disadvantaged racial group typically underperforms with respect to a historically privileged one. Perhaps. Except that it is only “historically disadvantaged” blacks or native americans. Not, for example, “historically disadvantaged” asians. There needs to be a special consideration for blacks; not just “historically disadvantaged” groups. If nurture is the explanation, we need to find out what it is about Grampa’s disadvantaged-ness that now extends to Junior’s scholastic achievement even if Junior is highly advantaged socioeconomically to the whites and asians who are out-competing him. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/113 "2016-07-29T00:12:31Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > **CP** saidUnless I’m misreading this, this is stating that black people underperform for reasons of “nature or nurture” unconnected to socioeconomic factors, the implication being that the reason for the underperformance being something intrinsic to black people (although **CP** stops shy of absolutely claiming a genetic cause here). Followed by the paragraph I quoted above, the conclusion I’m drawing is that **CP** is saying that black people can’t compete with white people due to this intrinsic intellectual (or similar) inferiority and thus would almost never be able to get into good medical schools on their own merits without the “boost” of AA. > > If you have a different interpretation of what he wrote - or if he would care to clarify - I’d be interested to hear it. Just to be clear: CP does claim that a genetic cause is far more likely than is a nurturing one for the outcome differences we see in academic skillsets (and many athletic skillsets) between self-identified whites and blacks. What CP does not claim is that the exact genetic combinations are worked out. This then, leaves room that CP is wrong. (He isn’t, but it leaves room for it. 😃 ) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/114 "2016-07-29T01:11:00Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > [Here.](http://www.jbhe.com/news_views/51_graduate_admissions_test.html) > _“If these institutions were to choose their students solely on test scores and college grades, it is clear that in the intense competition for places at medical schools in the United States, African Americans would be at a severe disadvantage in relation to the highest scoring whites. Under these circumstances no blacks would be admitted to the nation’s most selective schools of medicine.”_ > > While I commend your frustration, I speak from experience of many years on a Medical School Admissions Committee. The only thing that you demonstrated is that you did rely on that article many times before, even when the source already pointed to many other reasons other than IQ regarding that gap. (And even I found more from the JBHE explaining the reasons for that gap by not using genetics in previous discussions). The fact is that you always return to repeating what was noted, but not the explanations (that do not include genetics) that even the Journal of Blacks in Higher Educations reported also then. Nowadays this is just evidence that you will never learn. > **[Interactive Teaching in College Science Classes Can Close the Racial...](https://jbhe.com/2014/09/interative-teaching-in-college-science-classes-can-close-the-racial-achievement-gap/)** > > A new study by researchers at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the University of Washington finds that "active learning" techniques in science courses in college classrooms help all students, but have particular benefits for... > **[Race IQ – Game Over: It was always all about wealth](https://www.livinganthropologically.com/race-iq-game-over/)** > > The publication of 'Race, IQ, and Wealth' by Ron Unz effectively is game over for Race IQ peddlers--it was always about wealth & inequality. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/115 "2016-07-29T02:29:08Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Perhaps. > Except that it is only “historically disadvantaged” blacks or native americans. > Not, for example, “historically disadvantaged” asians. Yup, there’s all different kinds of historical disadvantage. A centuries-long history of being actual chattel slaves, with literally no more rights than livestock, creates a pretty culturally entrenched form of disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/116 "2016-07-29T06:27:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, since he wont accept any answer but "one, yes, it’s loaded and biased. And of course you know that. I know no such thing. He might think any other answer is scientifically _wrong_, sure, but he’ll certainly accept it’s _your_ answer. When you give it. Are you saying you don’t want to say what you really think just because it might be wrong? > [@](#): > > I did. > [@](#): > > **Not I,** the US Government. My emphasis. > [@](#): > > What else has meaning? Well, science, for one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/117 "2016-07-29T17:11:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I know no such thing. He might think any other answer is scientifically _wrong_, sure, but he’ll certainly accept it’s _your_ answer. When you give it. > > Are you saying you don’t want to say what you really think just because it might be wrong?My emphasis.Well, science, for one. I did give my answer. And how many races do _you_ say there are? How many does “science” say there are? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/118 "2016-07-29T21:29:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I did give my answer. I must have missed it. How many races did you say you, personally, believe exist, again? > [@](#): > > And how many races do _you_ say there are? One. > [@](#): > > How many does “science” say there are? I don’t know about this scare-quotes “science” you’re talking about, but science (or at least, scientific representative bodies in relevant disciplines) say “One” - like the AAPA quote given above. You know, the one where you chose to respond by wandering off into some kind of diversion about, of all things, racial purity. Yeah, when I hear a person talking about “pure races” and “mixed races”, my _first_ thought is always “That sounds so … _scientific_”:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/119 "2016-07-29T21:37:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I must have missed it. How many races did you say you, personally, believe exist, again?One.I don’t know about this scare-quotes “science” you’re talking about, but science (or at least, scientific representative bodies in relevant disciplines) say “One” - like the AAPA quote given above… > Yeah, when I hear a person talking about “pure races” and “mixed races”, my first thought is always "That sounds so … scientific I accept the US Census’s definition for legal and social reasons. Apparently _you_ do not. You answer “human” I suppose? And of course then you oppose Affirmative Action. So, if a person Self-Identifies as "mixed’, they are wrong, is that correct? You can’t Self Identify as “mixed” in your view? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2016, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466/120 "2016-07-29T22:10:41Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I accept the US Census’s definition for legal and social reasons. What does that have to do with the conversation? We were talking about races in a scientific context, no-one here has said they don’t believe in socially-constructed race. Which is all the Census considers: "The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. " > [@](#): > > Apparently _you_ do not. Not for the purposes of taxonomy or genetics, no. > [@](#): > > You answer “human” I suppose? On census forms? No, they’re not asking for my _biological_ race. If I was in the US, I’d pick “Other”, since the US Census doesn’t cover my ethnicity. > [@](#): > > And of course then you oppose Affirmative Action. No, I’m a big supporter of AA, but biological race has nothing to do with that. > [@](#): > > So, if a person Self-Identifies as "mixed’, they are wrong, is that correct? You can’t Self Identify as “mixed” in your view? No, of course you can - I, for instance, _am_ mixed. Because I’m a mix of two different distinguishable _ethnicities_ (one of which is itself a mixed ethnicity). I just don’t mistake my ethnicity (Coloured) for my race (Human) and I recognize when people are _saying_ race but _mean_ ethnicity… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-doesnt-exist-and-affirmative-action-cant-have-cake-and-eat-it-too/760466.md?page=7)