# Race is non-existent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100 "2012-12-05T18:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/801 "2013-02-10T16:42:00Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > They do about intelligence superiority and inferiority. Wrong again, as Nesbitt and many others report. - I need to add the link for the last quote: [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biological\_determinism](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biological_determinism) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/802 "2013-02-10T16:46:47Z")
> [@orcenio](#): > > What needs to be explained? Sickle cell isn’t a “black race” thing it’s a “[genetic condition that affects those whose ancestry comes from areas with high incidents of malaria](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Sickle_cell_distribution.jpg)” thing. A slightly more complex and accurate concept, yes. But such is science. Well do you agree that the following claim is wrong: “The sickle cell anemia gap between blacks and whites is solely environmental in origin.” ? If so, then when needs to be explained is why the claim that “race doesn’t exist” (whatever that means) is relevant to the claim that “observed differences in intelligence among races are solely environmental in origin.” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/803 "2013-02-10T16:50:24Z")
Hasty Generalization fallacy from brasil84 again. And he is clearly ignoring the research that Nesbitt and others point out. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/804 "2013-02-10T16:53:38Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well do you agree that the following claim is wrong: “The sickle cell anemia gap between blacks and whites is solely environmental in origin.” ? Who made this claim? ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/805 "2013-02-10T16:55:18Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Wrong again, as Nesbitt and many others report. > > - I need to add the link for the last quote: > > [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biological\_determinism](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biological_determinism) If you score high on a test, you are superior in what that test measures, this by definition. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/806 "2013-02-10T16:57:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Who made this claim? Maybe he missed the handout at school. 😛 > **[Retired Site | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/retired-site/)** > > This Content is No Longer Available > [@](#): > > Malaria is caused by a parasite carried by the Anopheles mosquito. After humans started practicing agriculture, the mosquito thrived in standing pools of water that appeared on the cleared land. Scientists believe that the sickle cell mutation arose independently four or five different times in human history, no more than 10,000 years ago, and probably much more recently. Because carrying one sickle cell gene conferred a survival advantage in areas of the world where malaria was common, the sickle cell mutation was positively selected and passed on in those regions. > > As humans migrated, the sickle cell trait spread, not by contagion, of course, but through reproduction. Population geneticists call it ‘gene flow’ when a gene variant like sickle cell passes from one population to another. As a result of these historical and environmental influences, sickle cell is commonly found in central and western Africa, but not Southern Africa. It is also found on the Arabian peninsula and over into India, as well as up through Turkey, Greece, Albania, Sicily and Italy and other parts of the Mediterranean basin. > > Carrying the sickle cell variant of the hemoglobin gene, therefore, is a marker not of race, but of descent from people who once lived where malaria was common. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/807 "2013-02-10T16:59:27Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > If you score high on a test, you are superior in what that test measures, this by definition. And as pointed many times before it has nothing to do with genes driving that difference. Nor that “races” are inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Vaffanculo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@Vaffanculo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaffanculo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/808 "2013-02-10T17:11:24Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your second sentence has some merit in the context of the argument; (I do see too much _ad hominem_ against you for my preferences). iiandyiiii has relied on presuming motive when he has launched his _ad hominem_s regarding inferiority, (just as you have presumed motive when you have hurled your “egalitarian” claim). > However, I can find no instance in this thread that supports your first sentence. You can use _ad hominem_ fallacies just as your opponents can, but if you assert an idea as fact, you still need to be able to cite it. Regarding the lack of a cite – I’m guessing Pedant wrote the preliminary paragraph regarding the 100m sprinting analogy for the purposes of highlighting that iiandyiiii’s agreement on the disparity of (2002) IQ test results is a de facto assertion of black inferiority in intelligence, even if iiandyiiii has not and will not employ the descriptor “inferior” personally. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/809 "2013-02-10T17:13:23Z")
> [@Vaffanculo](#): > > Regarding the lack of a cite – I’m guessing Pedant wrote the preliminary paragraph regarding the 100m sprinting analogy for the purposes of highlighting that iiandyiiii’s agreement on the disparity of (2002) IQ test results is a de facto assertion of black inferiority in intelligence, even if iiandyiiii has not and will not employ the descriptor “inferior” personally. This is not a “de facto” assertion of “black inferiority in intelligence”. It’s an assertion of a test score difference; that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/810 "2013-02-10T17:18:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Maybe he missed the handout at school. 😛 > > [Retired Site | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-teachers-04.htm) Excellent cite. To make this even clearer for Shiloh, correlating visible African ancestry with sickle cell anemia can actually be\* misleading\*. “Black” South Africans usually don’t have sickle cell. “White” Sicilians, southern Italians, and Greeks often do have it. Relying on “race” as the primary indicator means missing the cause of a life threatening illness. This is why many scientists reject the race concept as a fallacy. Not because of politics, but because it just doesn’t work in many cases. ---
**Author:** ![Vaffanculo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@Vaffanculo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaffanculo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/811 "2013-02-10T17:32:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is not a “de facto” assertion of “black inferiority in intelligence”. It’s an assertion of a test score difference; that’s it. Does this mean it is incorrect to say that Usain Bolt’s 9.63s 100m gold medal performance in London was _superior_ to that of his competitors, and all we can say is that the other runners scored _differently_? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/812 "2013-02-10T17:38:38Z")
> [@Vaffanculo](#): > > Does this mean it is incorrect to say that Usain Bolt’s 9.63s 100m gold medal performance in London was _superior_ to that of his competitors, and all we can say is that the other runners scored _differently_? No, the two have nothing to do with each other. Perhaps you believe that IQ test scores are a magical, perfect indicator of whatever human intelligence is, but I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/813 "2013-02-10T17:39:43Z")
> [@Vaffanculo](#): > > Does this mean it is incorrect to say that Usain Bolt’s 9.63s 100m gold medal performance in London was _superior_ to that of his competitors, and all we can say is that the other runners scored _differently_? Once again a Hasty Generalization fallacy, Acknowledging gaps in some conditions does not lead one to assume that genes are driving differences in intelligence between races. And this is even after looking at the evidence that shows that the racialist researchers ignored the lack of support they have in genetics regarding intelligence differences. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/814 "2013-02-10T17:48:51Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Relying on “race” as the primary indicator means missing the cause of a life threatening illness. > > This is why many scientists reject the race concept as a fallacy. Not because of politics, but because it just doesn’t work in many cases. Well fine, but what one can still ask whether the sickle cell anemia gap between blacks and whites is genetic in origin; environmental in origin; or some combination of the two. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/815 "2013-02-10T18:00:06Z")
Without support, specifically regarding the genes driving differences in intelligence, continuing with questions that are not really relevant is just a “Just asking questions” fallacy. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing\_off](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/JAQing_off) > [@](#): > > JAQing off is the act of spouting accusations while cowardly hiding behind the claim that one is “Just Asking Questions”.[1] The strategy is to keep asking leading questions in an attempt to influence listeners’ views; the term is derived from the frequent claim by the denialist that they are “just asking questions,” albeit in a manner much the same as political push polls. It is often associated with denialism in general. ---
**Author:** ![Vaffanculo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc8723/32.png) [@Vaffanculo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vaffanculo)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/816 "2013-02-10T20:56:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, the two have nothing to do with each other. Perhaps you believe that IQ test scores are a magical, perfect indicator of whatever human intelligence is, but I don’t. So you agree that the results are inferior, but due to the imperfection of IQ tests themselves, you cannot conclude what quality of the test takers is inferior? Would you say that there is _some_ cognitive quality these tests are measuring which is inferior? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Once again a Hasty Generalization fallacy, Acknowledging gaps in some conditions does not lead one to assume that genes are driving differences in intelligence between races. And this is even after looking at the evidence that shows that the racialist researchers ignored the lack of support they have in genetics regarding intelligence differences. The comment in my last post was confined to describing the current state of affairs, and what adjectives - if not inferior/superior - may be used to summarize IQ test scoring gaps without being labeled a racist. I was not addressing the cause of the gaps. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/817 "2013-02-10T21:01:56Z")
> [@Vaffanculo](#): > > So you agree that the results are inferior, but due to the imperfection of IQ tests themselves, you cannot conclude what quality of the test takers is inferior? I don’t conclude that any quality is necessarily inferior- I don’t even make a judgement on that. > [@](#): > > Would you say that there is _some_ cognitive quality these tests are measuring which is inferior? I don’t know, and it’s not important for the discussion of the test-score gap. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/818 "2013-02-10T21:14:28Z")
If race is non-existent, how come black people have black kids and white people have white kids? ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/819 "2013-02-10T21:59:46Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > If race is non-existent, how come black people have black kids and white people have white kids? They don’t always. [Eartha Kitt and her kids.](http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/111569799-jessica-groun-eartha-kitt-and-daughter-kitt-wireimage.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892140FEB0FF7845C57D499C7D59D181E983BA9DA06193921BEBF4051E4E96E31D4EE30A760B0D811297) [Victoria Rowell and her kids.](http://img28.xooimage.com/files/1/5/1/victoria-rowell-and-kids-9113d4.jpg) The broader point is that inheriting physical characteristics from your parents doesn’t prove the existence of race. Is [this guy black](http://media3.fcbarcelona.com/media/asset_publics/resources/000/023/070/size_640x360/2012-07-17_REVISION_MEDICA_NATHAN_JAWAI_008-Optimized.v1342609292.jpg)? Why, or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/820 "2013-02-10T22:26:05Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > If race is non-existent, how come black people have black kids and white people have white kids? What is your definition of “black people” and what is your definition of “white people”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100.md?page=42)