# Race is non-existent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100 "2012-12-05T18:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 43
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/841 "2013-02-11T12:33:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Race exists, but not as a biological concept- race exists as a cultural concept. Race is far, far more about culture then ancestry. I see. Discrimination based on cultural concept? I can’t stop laughing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/842 "2013-02-11T12:33:48Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > I see. Discrimination based on cultural concept? I can’t stop laughing. ?? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/843 "2013-02-11T12:35:34Z")
All discrimination is cultural. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/844 "2013-02-11T12:36:50Z")
All discrimination is political. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/845 "2013-02-11T12:38:08Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > All discrimination is political. Politics is a subset of culture. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/846 "2013-02-11T12:38:33Z")
If race doesn’t exist, how can affirmative action exist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/847 "2013-02-11T12:51:25Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > If race doesn’t exist, how can affirmative action exist? Race exists as a cultural (/political, if you like) concept, and affirmative action is also a cultural/political concept. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/848 "2013-02-11T12:57:24Z")
Those eligible for affirmative action become eligible by virtue of genetics not by virtue of culture. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/849 "2013-02-11T13:01:13Z")
Can white people choose to be black? Maybe they go through a period of study and testing, like converting to Judaism? A-and - does a white child raised by a black family become black? Is/should he be eligible for affirmative action? Reductio ad absurdum - complete. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/850 "2013-02-11T13:10:43Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Can white people choose to be black? Maybe they go through a period of study and testing, like converting to Judaism? > > A-and - does a white child raised by a black family become black? Is/should he be eligible for affirmative action? > > Reductio ad absurdum - complete. Race is an ever changing cultural concept. One doesnt “study” to change their racial category. but they move to an area that “measures/defines” race differently. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/851 "2013-02-11T13:12:23Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Those eligible for affirmative action become eligible by virtue of genetics not by virtue of culture. No, this is not true (except for gender). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/852 "2013-02-11T13:14:54Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Can white people choose to be black? Maybe they go through a period of study and testing, like converting to Judaism? > > A-and - does a white child raised by a black family become black? Is/should he be eligible for affirmative action? > > Reductio ad absurdum - complete. The same person might be considered different races in different countries, or different time periods. In America, mixed black and white people are generally considered, by culture, to be black (though this is not true in all cases). But some mixed people identify themselves as white. And most black people in America have a significant and varying amount of non-black ancestry, so it’s not always cut and dry. ---
**Author:** ![Shiloh2013](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@Shiloh2013](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shiloh2013)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/853 "2013-02-11T13:22:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The same person might be considered different races in different countries, or different time periods. In America, mixed black and white people are generally considered, by culture, to be black (though this is not true in all cases). But some mixed people identify themselves as white. And most black people in America have a significant and varying amount of non-black ancestry, so it’s not always cut and dry. See what a tortured knot you have yourself tied into? You can’t even give a cogent explanation of what “you” mean by “black” when you say “most black people.” Go ahead, have the last word, I’m bored with the game. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/854 "2013-02-11T13:24:38Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > See what a tortured knot you have yourself tied into? You can’t even give a cogent explanation of what “you” mean by “black” when you say “most black people.” Yes, you’re starting to get it- because it’s a vague cultural concept, with very loosely defined “borders”. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/855 "2013-02-11T13:33:56Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > See what a tortured knot you have yourself tied into? You can’t even give a cogent explanation of what “you” mean by “black” when you say “most black people.” > > Go ahead, have the last word, I’m bored with the game. :rolleyes: No game. You asked well known questions. You got straightforward, well known answers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/856 "2013-02-11T14:03:24Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Did you read the study? > Are you able to quote any of the relevant findings? > > The army isn’t looking for anything, and the JBHE used the army schools because they were confident going in that this was an excellent example of normalized educational, social and economic nurturing influences. > > Their study still showed a gap. > > Their conclusion was typical. The gap is a “puzzle.” Environment must be a factor. Gotta be. Gotta be. > > But what their data showed is that it is not a sufficient explanation to explain black white gaps. > > It’s a matter of faith for egalitarians that the black white score difference is envrironmental because it’s a matter of faith that there cannot be genetic factors. The data–not even data in a study by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education, with a venue chosen by them for normalizing nurture–do not show that normalizing environment normalizes these gaps. Nope, because other research show it and they reach a conclusion opposite to yours because of that and the fact that the gap shrank a lot. Once again, just rhetorical bullshit from you, and you already told us that you do not have the time to deal with the genetic explanation, but that also was bull. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/857 "2013-02-11T14:36:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it’s a matter of no genetic evidence for the genetic explanation. No evidence at all that favors the genetic explanation over “environment” explanations. > > How could they- they have not normalized environment. No study has normalized environment, not even close. Please read the study and let me know which element of the environment was not normalized. Your insistence that “no study has normalized environment, not even close” is completely unsupported, and this is an example. Remember, the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education chose this environment because they considered it to have a “very high degree of economic, educational and social compatibility.” The performance gap persisted, of course, even here. You just like to keep saying there is no evidence for genetics because you have established a non-falsifiable hypothesis. Like the JBHE, you will assume if the data shows a persistent gap, there simply must be some “mystery” reason for the difference. But not genes. No sirree. Not genes. No evidence for genes. None at all. Not even close to any evidence. And ditto if the topic were basketball. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/858 "2013-02-11T14:46:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Boy, I really touched a nerve here. I think you’ve made real progress, CP- you finally admitted that you think black people are inferior. > \, above > Again, you’re the one who thinks IQ tests are good indicators of intelligence, not me. No, I do not believe black people are inferior in the vague and poorly defined human quality known as intelligence. I also don’t think white people in 1995 were smarter than white people in 1945. More knowledgeable? Sure. But more intelligent? No, I don’t think so. > Don’t worry about my ass, I wear very thick jeans. I think blacks are “inferior” in the same way you think they are inferior. Their test scores are significantly inferior to whites and asians. I believe the cause for this inferior outcome is that the two populations are wired differently by their genetics for different skillsets, and that this is a result of evolution and migratory patterns. You believe the cause for this inferior outcome is that the two populations have different nurturing influences and that there is no evidence either evolution or migratory patterns have driven a difference in their geneset for the skillset underpinning these score gaps. You believe the score gap extends to an IQ gap of a full standard deviation, and this gap was even higher in the past. You think IQ scores are sort of like academic testing for grasp of taught content, and don’t reflect intelligence, per se (at least; this is what I think you are now saying). You may pat yourself on the back for enlightening me to the fact that I think that, but I believe you will never find a time when I did not hold to that position. You’ve now realized the trap the Flynn effect puts you in, and you are backing away from the idea that his research is anything more than a “tiny piece” of the debate. You are also backing away from the idea that IQ tests reflect cognitive ability, versus academic tests, which reflect knowledge. Good luck with the “IQ tests don’t reflect intelligence” approach. I suggest more reading on your part about intelligence testing. There is a qualitative difference between a test designed to assess fundamental cognitive ability and one designed to assess mastery of taught content. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/859 "2013-02-11T14:48:21Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Please read the study and let me know which element of the environment was not normalized. Culture, media representations and stereotypes, self-esteem, teacher expectations, parenting skills, and many, many more. > [@](#): > > Your insistence that “no study has normalized environment, not even close” is completely unsupported, and this is an example. I disagree. > [@](#): > > The performance gap persisted, of course, even here. You just like to keep saying there is no evidence for genetics because you have established a non-falsifiable hypothesis. I’ve made no hypothesis. You have no genetic evidence. Maybe there will be someday, but until there is, I see no reason to elevate the genetic explanation beyond a hypothesis. > [@](#): > > Like the JBHE, you will assume if the data shows a persistent gap, there simply must be some “mystery” reason for the difference. But not genes. No sirree. Not genes. No evidence for genes. None at all. Not even close to any evidence. Imagine that- asking for positive evidence to believe something? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/860 "2013-02-11T14:50:02Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Remember, the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education chose this environment because they considered it to have a “very high degree of economic, educational and social compatibility.” And remember, they reported that other environmental issues had to be taken care of, not a single word on genetics BTW. That inconsistency with information that actually contradicts your points and cherry picking only for supporting ones BTW is also a symptom of pseudoscience. Again, you need a big fat cite to show that I was wrong claiming that most researchers and experts out there do not consider what Rushton and others proposed to be pseudoscience. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100.md?page=42) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100.md?page=44)