# Race is non-existent **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100 "2012-12-05T18:28:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/881 "2013-02-11T19:28:11Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > 10 years? Fuck that, go back 2,000 years and black IQ is -925! > > Extrapolation–it’s how science is done! LOL. At least you are catching on to why I think his line of analysis smells like horseshit. Not to mention that while all these IQs were going up, SATs were going down… But the good news is that by 2050 we’ll all be geniuses and can figger out how much genes are involved with intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/882 "2013-02-11T19:33:16Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Has anyone seen the paper that tested the impact of motivation on IQ tests ? > > They took a group of kids and administered IQ tests to all of them. They then took the low-scoring kids and gave them another IQ test, this time offering them an M&M for each answer they got right. > > The average IQ score of this group of kids went from 79 to 97; that’s more than a standard deviation increase for the cost of a couple of chocolates. > > Anyone who thinks IQ is an immutable measure of intelligence should have that study tattooed on their face. And anyone who thinks environment (or even just motivation) can’t lead to a single standard deviation difference in test results should be force-fed M&Ms until they’re intelligent enough to recognize that they are wrong. I have not seen that study. Would you mind citing it? I have seen a few papers on Claude Steele’s “stereotype threat” which is a similar idea in the obverse, I guess. In my opinion anyone who does think you could raise an IQ test or academic test by a standard deviation with the correct motivation needs “stupid” tattooed on their forehead. If such were the case, we would be either beating or coaxing our children into Harvard, on full scholarships. And I’d be buying more Mars stock. Sheesh. [Try here](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/how_children_succeed_book_excerpt_what_the_most_boring_test_in_the_world_tells_us_about_motivation_and_iq_.html) for you m&m story. I’ll go look into it after my nap. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/883 "2013-02-11T19:41:10Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > [Try here](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/09/how_children_succeed_book_excerpt_what_the_most_boring_test_in_the_world_tells_us_about_motivation_and_iq_.html) for you m&m story. I’ll go look into it after my nap. Ahhh…can’t hold out on you. Here’s what happens if you read on: _“In recent years, the Harvard economist Roland Fryer has essentially tried to extend the M&M experiment to the scale of a metropolitan school system. He tested several different incentive programs in public schools—offering bonuses to teachers if they improved their classes’ test results; offering incentives like cellphone minutes to students if they improved their own test results; offering families financial incentives if their children did better. The experiments were painstaking and carefully run—and the results have been almost uniformly disappointing. There are a couple of bright spots in the data—in Dallas, a program that paid young kids for each book they read seems to have contributed to better reading scores for English-speaking students. But for the most part, the programs were a bust. The biggest experiment, which offered incentives to teachers in New York City, cost $75 million and took three years to conduct. And in the spring of 2011, Fryer reported that it had produced no positive results at all.”_ The problem with educating the public is that they will believe anything they read that reinforces some idiotic notion and retain that, but won’t research it enough to get the rest of the story…what the heck; it was only $75 million dollars spent to track down something I would have told him for free. Or, at least, less than $75M. What a dumbass. Maybe it was gubmint money. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/884 "2013-02-11T19:57:16Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Ahhh…can’t hold out on you. > > Here’s what happens if you read on: > \ > Maybe it was gubmint money. Sorry; missed edit window… It’s ridiculous to pretend that the gap in IQ and academic scores is a motivation problem. Sure; you could find motivation issues for all sorts of lame tests. But not ones that really count in the testee’s minds. Black kids might not score as well, but I don’t think there’s much evidence they are just too foolish to get motivated. [Here, for example:](http://www.theroot.com/views/study-minority-students-are-aware-stigmas-against-them%5B/URL) _“A recent study out of UCLA says that minority students as young as second grade are aware of stigmas against their ethnic groups and have increased academic anxiety as a result. But in a compelling twist, researchers also found that minority kids are more motivated about school than their white classmates. To assess motivation, kids were asked to rate four factors, including their levels of interest in school and if they chose to do their homework because they like learning new things. Based on those responses, black students’ average motivation level on a scale of one to five was 4.37, compared with 3.82 for white students.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/885 "2013-02-11T20:09:28Z")
While I’m killing pet theories: From [here.](http://www.theroot.com/views/acting-white-theory-doesnt-add?wpisrc=obinsite) \*“The Acting White Theory originated in the 1980s with Dr. John Ogbu’s ethnographic research and is commonly used to explain present-day “achievement gaps” between black and white students… The problem with the Acting White Theory is that it promotes the misconception that black students underachieve because of their corrupted attitudes.” \* ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/886 "2013-02-11T20:12:49Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Sorry; missed edit window… > > It’s ridiculous to pretend that the gap in IQ and academic scores is a motivation problem. > > Sure; you could find motivation issues for all sorts of lame tests. But not ones that really count in the testee’s minds. > > Black kids might not score as well, but I don’t think there’s much evidence they are just too foolish to get motivated. > > [Here, for example:](http://www.theroot.com/views/study-minority-students-are-aware-stigmas-against-them%5B/URL) > _“A recent study out of UCLA says that minority students as young as second grade are aware of stigmas against their ethnic groups and have increased academic anxiety as a result. But in a compelling twist, researchers also found that minority kids are more motivated about school than their white classmates. > To assess motivation, kids were asked to rate four factors, including their levels of interest in school and if they chose to do their homework because they like learning new things. Based on those responses, black students’ average motivation level on a scale of one to five was 4.37, compared with 3.82 for white students.”_ I can’t make that link work, and apparently I am too mentally handicapped to figure out why. I’m sorry. May need to copy and paste the text to have google bring up the original article… ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/887 "2013-02-11T20:15:56Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > [Here](http://folk.uio.no/geirthe/Equality.html) is an example of the kind of generalized pattern I’m talking about. I don’t see this pattern as peculiar to the US and its legacy of slavery. > > "Like Trinidad, Mauritius is a multi-ethnic society, its population composed of groups of Indian (Hindu and Muslim), African,mixed, French and Chinese descent. … > > Official Mauritian policy depicts Mauritian culture as a mosaic of Hindu, Muslim, European, African and Chinese influences, and it is highly unpopular to encourage the dissolution of cultural boundaries. Intermarriage is, incidentally, very rare.The division of labour in Mauritius remains ethnically correlated, although this tendency is strongest in the traditional occupations. Generally, Hindus and Muslims are associated with agriculture, and most are still employed (or self-employed) in the sugar industry, although Indo-Mauritians are to be found in any profession. The Coloureds follow the liberal professions (doctors, lawyers, teachers), and many work in the media and the civil service, while most of the black Creoles belong to the working class, as artisans, dockers, industrial workers and fishermen. The Sino-Mauritians dominate retail trade and play an increasingly important part in the new industries, while the Franco-Mauritians own and run the sugar industry… > > In Mauritius, it is now the black Creoles who are lagging behind as the country speedily passes through its IMF-monitored industrial revolution… > > As Mauritian society changes and a growing number of opportunities emerge, the Creoles are the least equipped to meet the challenges. Poorly educated and profoundly disorganised, they are definitely worse off than any other ethnic group, and the gulf is widening." > **[Mauritian Creoles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritian_Creole_people)** > > Mauritian Creoles are the people on the islands of Mauritius, Rodrigues, Agaléga and the Chagos Archipelago and in the wider overseas Mauritian diaspora who trace their roots to continental Africans who were brought to Mauritius under slavery from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century. The majority of these enslaved people came from the region in and around modern day Mozambique and Madagascar (with significant minorities from other parts of Africa and even some from Asia). Creole pe The Afri... > [@](#): > > Origins > > Brought in as slaves to work the plantations of Mauritius (as well as Réunion and Seychelles), the slaves were Africans mostly brought from East African Mozambique, Malawi, Tanzania, Madagascar and Zambia with smaller numbers from West Africa. There’s also a legacy of discrimination against dark skinned people in Mauritius that continued long after slavery ended. You’re not just ignorant, you’re proud of your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/888 "2013-02-11T20:19:42Z")
And CP, I’ve made this point a thousand times before, and I’ll make it now. You can’t tell what anyone’s genetics are just by looking at them. In Brazil, a person who looks black can have preponderance of European ancestry. The same could easily be true of Mauritius. Now, since Mauritius draws its population from a completely different part of Africa than the US did, we’re not talking about the same genetics. If you really had any grasp of the science behind this, then you wouldn’t make these ridiculous claims. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/889 "2013-02-11T21:20:08Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The problem with educating the public is that they will believe anything they read that reinforces some idiotic notion and retain that, but won’t research it enough to get the rest of the story…what the heck; it was only $75 million dollars spent to track down something I would have told him for free. Or, at least, less than $75M. What a dumbass. Maybe it was gubmint money. Yes, how dare those scientists do research, when \*\*Chief Pedant \*\*can just tell them the answer beforehand. After all, he knows better than those pesky experts. And, when the results are different than what \*\*Chief Pedant \*\*believes to be true, why then, he can just ignore those results. Here, I’ll help those pesky researchers with other fundamental questions: QM? Caused by invisible monkeys. Done! ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/890 "2013-02-11T22:28:41Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > You can’t tell what anyone’s genetics are just by looking at them. You can’t tell their sex either. Which doesn’t affect the fact that there are measurable gaps between and among various groups and those gaps may or may not be in large part the result of genetic differences. > [@](#): > > If you really had any grasp of the science behind this, then you wouldn’t make these ridiculous claims. And if you had any grasp of the actual issues under discussion, you would cease your relentless attack against strawmen. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/891 "2013-02-11T22:37:12Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > You can’t tell their sex either. Perhaps you can’t, but most of us don’t have this problem. Out of ever 500 naked adults that most of us saw, how many would we really not be able to tell what “sex” they were. Considerably more than looking at 500 naked, randomly selected adults and being told ok “White, Hispanic, East African, West African, North African, East Asian, South Asian, and Australian Aboriginal” say which is which. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/892 "2013-02-11T22:40:05Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Oh well. I guess if race doesn’t exist, it follows that racism doesn’t exist either. > [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Of course the laws will need to be changed too. If race doesn’t exist, we can’t have a law about discrimination based on race. > [@Shiloh2013](#): > > I see. Discrimination based on cultural concept? I can’t stop laughing. This is thread shitting. This thread is long enough and hostile enough among people who are arguing their points in good faith. The sort of semantic bullshit you are spewing as one-liners does nothing to move the discussion forward. Stop it. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/893 "2013-02-11T22:43:49Z")
**EVERYONE** , The whole “inferior” discussion has gotten too personal and too far off track. Unless a poster decides to submit that he or she considers one group inferior to another, drop it. No more accusing other posters of holding one group or another to be “inferior.” [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/894 "2013-02-11T22:55:03Z")
> [@Shiloh2013](#): > > Oh well. I guess if race doesn’t exist, it follows that racism doesn’t exist either. Actually, I think this post has a point. OP, if you think that race is is non-existent, then isn’t that like saying that _racism_ doesn’t exist as well? The [definition of racism](http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=2&gs_ri=hp&cp=8&gs_id=8&xhr=t&q=racism+definition&es_nrs=true&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=racism+d&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&fp=f61a04ae7920d10d&biw=1527&bih=840&ion=1) is, “The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as…” So if race doesn’t exist, then how can “beliefs that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race” exist? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/895 "2013-02-11T23:00:20Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Actually, I think this post has a point. > > OP, if you think that race is is non-existent, then isn’t that like saying that _racism_ doesn’t exist as well? The [definition of racism](http://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=2&gs_ri=hp&cp=8&gs_id=8&xhr=t&q=racism+definition&es_nrs=true&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=racism+d&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.dmQ&fp=f61a04ae7920d10d&biw=1527&bih=840&ion=1) is, “The belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as…” So if race doesn’t exist, then how can “beliefs that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race” exist? You make no points, here, when attempting to use sophistry to defend threadshitting. Regardless whether the belief in races is accurate, it is the belief that races exist that drives racism. Until you can demonstrate that there is no belief that races exist, you have no point in this discussion. If you want to take up the subject of whether racism can exist, with or without the reality of race, then open a new thread to do so. Do not further hijack this thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/896 "2013-02-11T23:31:37Z")
> [@Samsaric\_Helicoid](#): > > Race is a social construct. It does not exist. Any proof/reasoning/evidence for that? > [@](#): > > There are no determinate characteristics distinguishing groups of Homo sapiens as separate, whether in discernible genetics or characteristics of brain architecture. How do you claim that? > [@](#): > > Differences among individuals exists, but you cannot cogently pool certain groups of individuals together based off similar genes or brain architecture. Why can’t I? > [@](#): > > Thus, “White”, “Black”, “Hispanic”, and so forth are all inadequate abstractions in describing the unique properties present in a human being. Why? > [@](#): > > It is an arbitrary division people drew up for the sake of classifying _perceived_ groups of others. In reality, it is not an adequate means to evaluate the _character_ of another. Your perception of someone’s “race” says absolutely nothing about his or her values or temperament. You’re not disproving the existence of race here. > [@](#): > > I am tired of how human beings are dancing around to non-existent tunes, wasting energy. I’m tired of seeing how your OP is filled with assumptions and claims with very little evidence and reasoning to back any of them up. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/897 "2013-02-12T00:04:58Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > [Mauritian Creoles - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauritian_Creole_people) > > There’s also a legacy of discrimination against dark skinned people in Mauritius that continued long after slavery ended. > > You’re not just ignorant, you’re proud of your ignorance. Sweden, too? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/898 "2013-02-12T00:11:58Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > And CP, I’ve made this point a thousand times before, and I’ll make it now. > > You can’t tell what anyone’s genetics are just by looking at them. In Brazil, a person who looks black can have preponderance of European ancestry. The same could easily be true of Mauritius. > > Now, since Mauritius draws its population from a completely different part of Africa than the US did, we’re not talking about the same genetics. If you really had any grasp of the science behind this, then you wouldn’t make these ridiculous claims. Well…it could be true of black Creoles in Mauritius. But do you think this is likely? I sort of have sympathy for the argument of not judging any given individual’s ancestral heritage by appearance if they are sensitive about it. I nevertheless think it’s likely that the black Creoles of Mauritius are mostly of sub-saharan African genetic stock (in mtDNA lineages, pre L3 split into eurasian populations). The essay I cited was referring to the “black” Creoles. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/899 "2013-02-12T00:12:17Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Any proof/reasoning/evidence for that? Lots, but do you have an hour? https://www.youtube.com/embed/bCR7vSD2Ohw?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque By the way, PBS like Rational Wiki and Skeptical Dictionary, just did something that seems too hard by many here, they went and asked the experts and educators to tell them what the science is finding. If you do not have an hour, check the companion site for that program: **Race, The Power of an illusion:** > **[Retired Site | PBS](https://www.pbs.org/retired-site/)** > > This Content is No Longer Available ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100/900 "2013-02-12T00:18:58Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yes, how dare those scientists do research, when \*\*Chief Pedant \*\*can just tell them the answer beforehand. After all, he knows better than those pesky experts. And, when the results are different than what \*\*Chief Pedant \*\*believes to be true, why then, he can just ignore those results. > > Here, I’ll help those pesky researchers with other fundamental questions: QM? Caused by invisible monkeys. Done! Fair enough. But $75M on just one program to prove you can’t improve test scores by bribing people seems a little excessive to me, particularly if it’s a followup study trying to prove M&Ms erase IQ gaps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-is-non-existent/643100.md?page=46)