# Race, Racism and Such **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346 "2016-04-28T15:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/181 "2016-05-04T17:16:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I imagine this hypothetical is much, much easier to consider accepting when you’re not part of an ethnic group that has, for centuries, had extreme brutality against it justified by pseudoscientific claims about inferior intelligence. Um, why? Do you have the slightest bit of evidence for that? I already mentioned that I think the average IQ for my own group is fairly low, and that the differences are probably significantly genetic. As far as I know, Black people in America are more likely to believe the Black vs. White test score gap is due to genetic factors as white people are. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/182 "2016-05-04T17:17:40Z")
In any case, while the factors you mentioned might help explain a lack of objectivity and humility, they’re hardly excuses for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/183 "2016-05-04T17:19:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The difference between assertions about test scores and about inherent intellectual ability due to genetics is the same as the difference between (for example) “Jews, on average, save X% of their wealth more than non-Jews” and “Jews are, on average, inherently greedier than non-Jews due to inferior genes for charity”. You seem to be taking for granted this the “Jews are greedy” argument would be treated differently than the race-IQ one. I don’t think this is true, assuming it followed the same structure. Meaning, suppose someone could document that Jews, on average saved X% of their wealth more than non-Jews, and then turned around and speculated that this is likely due to some genetic cause, I don’t think it would be treated differently than the race-IQ discussions. It would, of course, be subject to the same considerations involving normalizing for various other factors, and the extent to which greed is a genetic function etc. But I would think to the extent that you could bring facts and reason to bear on that discussion, it would be analogous to the discussions we have here. If you’re trying to conjure up images of someone simply declaring “those Jews are just a bunch of greedy conniving bastards”, then sure it would be hate speech. As would “those blacks are just a bunch of dumb niggers”. But that’s not the structure of the discussions here. [ISTM that this underlies the comparison you keep making. There is typically very little in the way of actual evidence brought to bear when Jewish greed is brought up, so raising that issue automatically conjures up the empty bigotry type of discussion. But if it took a more facts-and-reason form, then I would say that’s fair game too.] ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/184 "2016-05-04T17:19:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The difference between assertions about test scores and about inherent intellectual ability due to genetics is the same as the difference between (for example) “Jews, on average, save X% of their wealth more than non-Jews” and “Jews are, on average, inherently greedier than non-Jews due to inferior genes for charity”. Neither of them, though, seems particularly objectionable to me, _unless the latter had been proven to be false_. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/185 "2016-05-04T17:21:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You seem to be taking for granted this the “Jews are greedy” argument would be treated differently than the race-IQ one. I don’t think this is true, assuming it followed the same structure. Meaning, suppose someone could document that Jews, on average saved X% of their wealth more than non-Jews, and then turned around and speculated that this is likely due to some genetic cause, I don’t think it would be treated differently than the race-IQ discussions. It would, of course, be subject to the same considerations involving normalizing for various other factors, and the extent to which greed is a genetic function etc. But I would think to the extent that you could bring facts and reason to bear on that discussion, it would be analogous to the discussions we have here. > > If you’re trying to conjure up images of someone simply declaring “those Jews are just a bunch of greedy conniving bastards”, then sure it would be hate speech. As would “those blacks are just a bunch of dumb niggers”. But that’s not the structure of the discussions here. > > [ISTM that this underlies the comparison you keep making. There is typically very little in the way of actual evidence brought to bear when Jewish greed is brought up, so raising that issue automatically conjures up the empty bigotry type of discussion. But if it took a more facts-and-reason form, then I would say that’s fair game too.] +100. I do occasionally hear discussions along those lines brought up, often by, uh, people who are themselves ethnically Jewish, and I certainly wouldn’t want to see them excluded from public discourse. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/186 "2016-05-04T17:25:15Z")
I don’t want to exclude these arguments, I just want to be able to accurately characterize them. And, according to the rules of the board, I can (mostly) do this, so I’m not really complaining. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/187 "2016-05-04T17:29:17Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Um, why? Do you have the slightest bit of evidence for that? It’s all anecdotal – I’m not sure what other evidence could be presented for how I think other people feel making certain statements. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/188 "2016-05-04T19:14:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I don’t want to be able to call someone a racist. I don’t even stick my toes into the cesspool threads where it’s relevant. What bothers me is that we don’t allow “You’re racist” because that’s somehow personal and needlessly inflames the debate, but we allow “You’re genetically inferior” provided the poster provides a wall-of-text full of bullshit pseudo-scientific, oft-discounted babble because somehow that wall of text provides “supporting evidence”–even though the exact same “supporting evidence” has been taken apart and shown to be worthless over and over and over again. > > We can’t say “you’re a racist” because the assumption is that that makes the argument personal, people get hurt, it goes off the rails. But we can say “you’re genetically inferior” and then it’s on the target to keep hold of themselves, not react emotionally to a deeply personal dig not just at themselves but at their families. > > It’s the imbalance that drives me crazy. We are treating racists with kid gloves, giving them as much rope as they want as often as they want, going out of our way to treat them well out of some loyalty to the ideal of free and honest debate. I feel like we give them \*more \*latitude than we’d give less controversial topics because it’s become the test case for our loyalty to those ideas. But in doing so, we ask a significant number of people to submit to being discussed like specimens in an experiment and hold them to an incredibly high standard in terms of not responding to what are personal attacks. Well said. > [@MandaJo](#): > > And I can’t help but feel like it’s yet another example of not taking the feelings of minorities quite as seriously as the feelings of the mainstream. I think this is a very important point. It’s as though the feelings of members of the racist group are more important than the feelings of the members of the African American group. I also agree with your approach of not joining these cesspool threads even to argue against the racists’ assertions. The arguments someone makes against the racists are typically ignored so the only effect of a new post to these threads is to keep them on the first page of GD. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/189 "2016-05-04T19:46:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s all anecdotal – I’m not sure what other evidence could be presented for how I think other people feel making certain statements. So basically, you have no evidence. Carry on, then. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/190 "2016-05-04T19:55:25Z")
ISTM that his claim (FWIW) is a common-sense one that can be made without direct evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/191 "2016-05-04T20:27:22Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > What bothers me is that we don’t allow “You’re racist” because that’s somehow personal and needlessly inflames the debate, but we allow “You’re genetically inferior” … We don’t allow “you’re genetically inferior”. We allow “the group to which you belong, on average, performs lower on IQ tests even when SES is held constant”. Just like we allow “those views are racist”, or “voter ID laws are intended to prevent minorities from voting”. > [@](#): > > … then it’s on the target to keep hold of themselves, not react emotionally to a deeply personal dig not just at themselves but at their families. It is not a “deeply personal dig”. And if you can’t debate calmly when groups to which you may belong are insulted, then you are correct to stay out of threads where the characteristics of those groups are debated. > [@](#): > > But in doing so, we ask a significant number of people to submit to being discussed like specimens in an experiment and hold them to an incredibly high standard in terms of not responding to what are personal attacks. We are not holding them to any standard that we aren’t holding Republicans, or Democrats, or Trump voters, or Clinton voters, or Sanders voters, or Zionists, or anti-Zionists, or anyone else. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/192 "2016-05-04T21:38:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > So basically, you have no evidence. Carry on, then. Yes, until we get mass mind-reading, or an absurdly and unrealistically specific poll, then I’ll have to go with anecdotal evidence and common sense. But if you want to believe (for example) that Jews react no differently than non-Jews if accused of greed, then go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/193 "2016-05-04T23:42:00Z")
The longer I frequent this board, the more evident it becomes that posters who insist on calling other posters racist are emotionally fragile, and use the loaded term to pitifully cement their sense of inner sanctity. I have always said “let the fools speak freely and judge them accordingly.” Big boys don’t get butthurt and take it personal because an anonymous stranger on the internet said a mean about a particular group of people. Bandying about the term “racist” serves no purpose other than to brand someone, often illegitimately, with the ignominious “R.” Suits only the fool, I say. Let him speak to remove all doubt. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/194 "2016-05-05T00:03:24Z")
:rolleyes: Why should “big boys” get butthurt and take it personal (sic) because an anonymous stranger on the internet calls them racist? . ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/195 "2016-05-05T01:15:07Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The longer I frequent this board, the more evident it becomes that posters who insist on calling other posters racist are emotionally fragile, and use the loaded term to pitifully cement their sense of inner sanctity. > > I have always said “let the fools speak freely and judge them accordingly.” Big boys don’t get butthurt and take it personal because an anonymous stranger on the internet said a mean about a particular group of people. Bandying about the term “racist” serves no purpose other than to brand someone, often illegitimately, with the ignominious “R.” > > Suits only the fool, I say. Let him speak to remove all doubt. > [@andros](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Why should “big boys” get butthurt and take it personal (sic) because an anonymous stranger on the internet calls them racist? > . The heat and insults are starting to grow, so let’s take it to the Pit if you can’t dial it back some. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/196 "2016-05-05T01:22:19Z")
Nvm. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/197 "2016-05-05T06:06:57Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Wait, what? This is forbidden speech here? Try it and see. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/198 "2016-05-05T06:16:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s not clear what distinction you’re making between these two statements. If you can’t tell the difference, then there’s no real point talking to you about it, as your frame of reference would appear to be vastly different from any I can relate to… > [@](#): > > In the context in which you used it, “given” and “only” mean the exact same thing. If someone says “I would, given that …” it’s the exact same thing as saying “I would, only if …”. > > So you said what I attributed to you, and my point stands. No. The second formulation does not preclude there being other possible givens (say, “given I’m talking to a known racist”, the first does. > [@Shodan](#): > > ATMB is for discussion of the rules. And complaints about the moderation. Which is what I was doing. > [@](#): > > Therefore it is a pretty safe assumption that I am talking about the rules, not something else. Nope. Since this is also for complaints, “objectionable” could (and did, for me) refer to reactions, not rules. You know, like it’s actual real-life meaning. > [@](#): > > The key word is “personal” No, not in my statement. The key word is “attack”. Drop the word “personal” and my sentence still conveys the meaning I intended. Please do so. Consider it a late edit. > [@](#): > > insults can be aimed at groups Try insulting Jews as a group, then… > [@](#): > > “Sub-Saharan Africans and their descendants, on average, score lower on IQ tests than other groups, even when SES is held constant” is not hate speech Good thing that’s not what I said was hate speech, then. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/199 "2016-05-05T06:22:11Z")
Damnit, I do know when to use the apostrophe i_t’s_ correctly. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/200 "2016-05-05T13:45:13Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Damnit, I do know when to use the apostrophe i_t’s_ correctly. You forgot to quote that. :dubious: 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=11)