# Race, Racism and Such **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346 "2016-04-28T15:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/201 "2016-05-05T13:53:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, until we get mass mind-reading, or an absurdly and unrealistically specific poll, then I’ll have to go with anecdotal evidence and common sense. > > But if you want to believe (for example) that Jews react no differently than non-Jews if accused of greed, then go right ahead. Some of them do, and some of them don’t. I’m going to approve of the ones who do for their ability to demonstrate objectivity and humility, and I’m going to mock the ones who don’t. I expect anyone participating in this kind of discussion to realize that their personal feelings _don’t matter_, and are in any case no substitute for reason and evidence. Of course, **MrDibble** seems to have a habit of this kind of thing, in a previous thread where I was criticizing liberal democracy he said something to the effect that he believed in democracy because he ‘had scars’ from protesting for it, or something. Being beaten because you want the right to vote is not actually, um, evidence that you deserve it, so I mocked him for that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/202 "2016-05-05T13:55:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Only in the sense that any individual of any race is “genetically inferior” to any other individual of any race who has a higher IQ. And that’s what we’re talking about-- IQ. > > If I say that SSAs are, on average. lower in intelligence (as measured by IQ test) than Europeans, that does not tell us how any random European compares to any random SSA. You cannot jump from “on average” to “all”, nor can you assign some genetic value to an individual based on the genetic average of what group you put the individual in. Agreed. Were I to say that Jews are more likely to be evil than non-Jews, I’m certainly not making any claims about any random individual Jews and no serious person would think I was engaging in anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/203 "2016-05-05T13:55:45Z")
> [@andros](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Why should “big boys” get butthurt and take it personal (sic) because an anonymous stranger on the internet calls them racist? > . I don’t care, personally (there are insults that I would take personally, but this isn’t one). I care only because it makes it less likely that bystanders are actually going to listen to and accept the arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/204 "2016-05-05T13:57:36Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Try it and see. I’ve said plenty of other negative things about Jews and Judaism, including (on this board) that they don’t worship the same God as Christians do. I’m not well enough acquainted with the literature on Jews, genetics and selfishness, but I’ll take your advice and look into it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/205 "2016-05-05T14:01:10Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Some of them do, and some of them don’t. I’m going to approve of the ones who do for their ability to demonstrate objectivity and humility, and I’m going to mock the ones who don’t. I expect anyone participating in this kind of discussion to realize that their personal feelings _don’t matter_, and are in any case no substitute for reason and evidence. There are many types of evidence – when the same tired (and false) arguments are put forward for the supposed inherent genetic intellectual inferiority of black people, and when the same contrary evidence (like the study that measured admixture and found zero correlation between African admixture and lower test scores among black children) is consistently ignored by the “blacks are dumber” crowd, then that pattern becomes a sort of evidence of the motivations and reasoning behind those who push forward the idea that black people are inherently intellectually inferior, on average. And when we look at the history of these claims, we can see the same and similar patterns over decades. There is also the enormous evidence for varying forms of differing treatment and brutality over the decades and centuries, some of which survives today. So you can mock who you like, and I’ll continue to mock (and challenge, of course) those who, for some reason, insist upon making the same pseudoscientific claims of past white supremacists, and ignore the same contrary evidence that so many white supremacist supporters have conveniently ignored. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/206 "2016-05-05T14:07:15Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Agreed. Were I to say that Jews are more likely to be evil than non-Jews, I’m certainly not making any claims about any random individual Jews and no serious person would think I was engaging in anti-Semitism. That’s an especially apt analogy because of the existence of an “Evil IQ” test that allow us to reference data about evilness. Oh wait… no such test exists! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/207 "2016-05-05T14:09:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s an especially apt analogy because of the existence of an “Evil IQ” test that allow us to reference data about evilness. Oh wait… no such test exists! There do exist various psych tests on things like compassion and empathy. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/208 "2016-05-05T15:34:09Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Of course, **MrDibble** seems to have a habit of this kind of thing, in a previous thread where I was criticizing liberal democracy he said something to the effect that he believed in democracy because he ‘had scars’ from protesting for it, or something. Being beaten because you want the right to vote is not actually, um, evidence that you deserve it, so I mocked him for that. You’re completely mischaracterizing what I wrote, just like you repeatedly did in that very thread. [As I told you then](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18069347&postcount=58), the scars are why I’m vocal, not why I believe in it. So I’ll thank you not to misrepresent what my opinions are, please. Especially since you were told the first time that that’s what you were doing… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/209 "2016-05-05T15:43:58Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > I’ve said plenty of other negative things about Jews and Judaism, including (on this board) that they don’t worship the same God as Christians do. If you think a matter of religious opinion (doubtless common amongst many Fundie Christians) is the same thing as, or will be treated the same here as, saying “Jews are evil/greedy/steal babies”, you’re … I dunno, something else, that’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/210 "2016-05-05T16:01:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If you think a matter of religious opinion (doubtless common amongst many Fundie Christians) is the same thing as, or will be treated the same here as, saying “Jews are evil/greedy/steal babies”, you’re … I dunno, something else, that’s for sure. In response to your specific question, I don’t know if Jews, or any other group, have more of a genetic tendency towards selfishness. (I think that some other ethnic groups do, but haven’t seen enough data on Jews). I certainly don’t think it’s ‘offensive’ to make the claim if it’s backed up by evidence, and if any Jewish person complained otherwise I’d mock them in _exactly_ the same way I’m mocking you. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/211 "2016-05-05T16:03:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If you think a matter of religious opinion (doubtless common amongst many Fundie Christians) . Wrong again: evangelicals are actually incredibly philosemitic and tend to think that the Jewish covenant is still in effect. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/212 "2016-05-05T16:05:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There do exist various psych tests on things like compassion and empathy. If they showed that Jews scored lower, would you accept those results, or would you try to suppress them? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/213 "2016-05-05T16:24:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You’re completely mischaracterizing what I wrote, just like you repeatedly did in that very thread. [As I told you then](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18069347&postcount=58), the scars are why I’m vocal, not why I believe in it. So I’ll thank you not to misrepresent what my opinions are, please. Especially since you were told the first time that that’s what you were doing… Those ‘scars’ don’t actually entitle you to be vocal, either, if you’re wrong on the merits. In any case, I’m not sure what the relevance of your ‘scars’ are to the debate. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/214 "2016-05-05T17:38:51Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > If they showed that Jews scored lower, would you accept those results, or would you try to suppress them? When have I advocated suppressing anything? I would accept that some tests have showed that Jews score lower in these factors – but I wouldn’t accept that this counts as evidence that Jews are inherently genetically inferior in morality. Does the history of pseudoscientific claims on this issue that just so happened to _almost always_ support white supremacist claims give you any pause, or have any relevance whatsoever to you? Does the fact that the only actual study (the oft-linked [Scarr study](https://www.scribd.com/doc/3616665/Sandra-Scarr-Andrew-J-Pakstis-Solomon-H-Katz-and-William-B-Barker-Absence-of-a-relationship-between-degree-of-white-ancestry-and-intellectual-s)) to directly look at genetic ancestry admixture as correlated to intelligence test scores, while also fully correcting for nurture and environmental factors due to race, showed zero correlation between African admixture and lower test scores, is continually dismissed and ignored by the “blacks are dumber crowd”, tell you anything at all about their motivation or intellectual honesty? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/215 "2016-05-05T19:47:37Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > In response to your specific question, I don’t know if Jews, or any other group, have more of a genetic tendency towards selfishness. ( **I think that some other ethnic groups d** o, but haven’t seen enough data on Jews). Alrighty, then… > [@](#): > > I’d mock them in _exactly_ the same way I’m mocking you. Yeah, you’re aware this isn’t the Pit, right? > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Wrong again: evangelicals are actually incredibly philosemitic and tend to think that the Jewish covenant is still in effect. Because I said “evangelicals”…Oh, wait, no, I didn’t. Are you unfamiliar with the existence of New Covenant Theology, or just conveniently ignoring it? > [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Those ‘scars’ don’t actually entitle you to be vocal, either Who said anything about “entitlement”? You really are on a thin brown streak of just plain making up shit I said, aren’t you? > [@](#): > > , if you’re wrong on the merits That thread shows I was right on the merits, too, Mr “Cuba is so much a better country than those mediocre Western Liberal Democracies”. > [@](#): > > . In any case, I’m not sure what the relevance of your ‘scars’ are to the debate. How the fuck should I know, _you_ were the one who brought it up here (assuming you mean this current discussion - I explained the relevance enough in that one). And ‘scars’? if you want to accuse me of lying, do it openly, and in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/216 "2016-05-05T20:40:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > \There seems to be this never ending optimism that if we debate a certain topic just one more time, we’ll get it right. **Frankly, I think it would be useful just to have an Omnibus Pit Thread on “Race Realism”** , and take anyone there immediately who opens a new thread on that topic. My bolding. I endorse this. This thread has become an excellent illustration of why that might be helpful. Did we conclude that we could use the term racist to describe the post and note the poster? Or is it still a dogwhistle term and not for use at all outside of the Pit? I’ve lost track of where we ended on the original discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/217 "2016-05-05T21:52:32Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Alrighty, then Uh, what’s that supposed to me? I think that some ethnic/racial groups do have greater tendencies to selfishness, low social trust, etc., and that those differences are probably genetically based to some extent. Southern Indians, for a start. Don’t you? I don’t know if Jews are among them or not. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Are you unfamiliar with the existence of New Covenant Theology, or just conveniently ignoring it? Are you familiar with where the idea that Jews and Christians worship different gods comes from, or are you just ignoring it? (Hint, Marcion, who was not a fundamentalist or any sort of protestant for that matter). > [@MrDibble](#): > > Who said anything about “entitlement”? You really are on a thin brown streak of just plain making up shit I said, aren’t you? That thread shows I was right on the merits, too, Mr “Cuba is so much a better country than those mediocre Western Liberal Democracies”.How the fuck should I know, _you_ were the one who brought it up here (assuming you mean this current discussion - I explained the relevance enough in that one). > > And ‘scars’? if you want to accuse me of lying, do it openly, and in the Pit. 1. I still think Cuba is a better country than most western liberal democracy, and that the old communist countries of eastern Europe were too. I’ll stand by that. Perhaps not for people like _you_, but certainly for the poorest slice of society, which perhaps is irrelevant to you. 2. Your comments proved nothing, actually. All you did was show that prosperous societies mostly tend to be liberal democracies. Well, they also mostly tend to be in Europe or Anglo-America. Whether a society is in Europe or not is a substantially better predictor of how prosperous it is than whether it’s a liberal democracy. Africa has plenty of liberal democracies, and I think most people would much rather live in Russia, Belarus or Cuba than in any of the African democracies, or for that matter in any Southern Asian democracy. I don’t know exactly why Europe and Anglo-America are the most prosperous regions of the world, but I doubt it has jack to do with liberal democracy, or for that matter with capitalism. 3. I didn’t think you were lying, I included the quotes because it was a direct quote, and I brought up the quote to underscore my extreme disapproval for people who bring personal anecdotes and experiences into what should be objective discussions about the issues. If you want to start a pit thread, go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/218 "2016-05-05T21:57:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When have I advocated suppressing anything? I would accept that some tests have showed that Jews score lower in these factors – but I wouldn’t accept that this counts as evidence that Jews are inherently genetically inferior in morality. > > Does the history of pseudoscientific claims on this issue that just so happened to _almost always_ support white supremacist claims give you any pause, or have any relevance whatsoever to you? Does the fact that the only actual study (the oft-linked [Scarr study](https://www.scribd.com/doc/3616665/Sandra-Scarr-Andrew-J-Pakstis-Solomon-H-Katz-and-William-B-Barker-Absence-of-a-relationship-between-degree-of-white-ancestry-and-intellectual-s)) to directly look at genetic ancestry admixture as correlated to intelligence test scores, while also fully correcting for nurture and environmental factors due to race, showed zero correlation between African admixture and lower test scores, is continually dismissed and ignored by the “blacks are dumber crowd”, tell you anything at all about their motivation or intellectual honesty? What would convince you that some group was “genetically inferior” with respect to traits like selfishness, greed, social trust, etc., or would you never be convinced? Yes, I saw that study. It’s a data point in favour, but not enough to shake me off my prior that differences between groups are most likely partly genetic in origin. People have been trying to do similar studies which would settle the issue once and for all, for about ten years now. As yet, non-hereditarian researchers haven’t shown enough interest, and the hereditarians are unwilling to go forward until they have interest from a broader spectrum of people. I think a similar study is going to happen within the next 10 years though, and then we’ll finally know the answer to this question. You can take bets on which way it will turn out. (Of course, it will only settle the question of whether two specific ethnic groups have differences in intelligence that are partly genetically based, it won’t settle the question as regards every ethnic group on the planet). As to whether the history of these kinds of debates gives me any pause, no not really. I’m uninterested in the history, nor do I think it’s important or relevant. Again, someone may not like to hear that their group has greater tendencies towards lower IQ, greater selfishness and greed, or for that matter higher diabetes risk, but that isn’t an _excuse_ for lack of appropriate objectivity and humility, and I’m going to call them out for it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/219 "2016-05-05T22:01:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “We’re all”, here, means “we are all, as a group”, not “we are all, each and individually” In that context, “we are all” and “as a group” contradict one another. You are either talking about the group average or every individual within the group. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/220 "2016-05-05T22:11:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes, until we get mass mind-reading, or an absurdly and unrealistically specific poll, then I’ll have to go with anecdotal evidence and common sense. > > But if you want to believe (for example) that Jews react no differently than non-Jews if accused of greed, then go right ahead. The problem is that you repeatedly bring up that horrible, horrible comparison with Jews being greedy. Do you have any evidence for this? No, you don’t. That is not the case with Blacks being intellectually inferior due to genetics. As you know, that is not a view that I hold, but there IS evidence, weak as it may be, for that position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=12)