# Race, Racism and Such **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346 "2016-04-28T15:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/221 "2016-05-05T22:27:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The problem is that you repeatedly bring up that horrible, horrible comparison with Jews being greedy. Do you have any evidence for this? No, you don’t. That is not the case with Blacks being intellectually inferior due to genetics. As you know, that is not a view that I hold, but there IS evidence, weak as it may be, for that position. There’s evidence for differences in test scores, but test scores don’t tell us anything about genetics. There’s also good evidence of _no correlation whatsoever_ between African admixture and lower test scores, when nurture factors due to race are held constant. That’s nigh-infinitely stronger evidence, in terms of telling us something about genetics, than any test score data alone, which is all that the “blacks are dumber” crowd has got. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/222 "2016-05-05T22:35:54Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > What would convince you that some group was “genetically inferior” with respect to traits like selfishness, greed, social trust, etc., or would you never be convinced? A complete understanding of every single gene in the human gene pool related to these traits, how these genes affect human behavior, and their prevalence among every ethnic group that constitutes humanity. > [@](#): > > Yes, I saw that study. It’s a data point in favour, but not enough to shake me off my prior that differences between groups are most likely partly genetic in origin. People have been trying to do similar studies which would settle the issue once and for all, for about ten years now. As yet, non-hereditarian researchers haven’t shown enough interest, and the hereditarians are unwilling to go forward until they have interest from a broader spectrum of people. I think a similar study is going to happen within the next 10 years though, and then we’ll finally know the answer to this question. You can take bets on which way it will turn out. We’ll see, but I think the white supremacists are too cowardly to actually risk doing the science – I don’t think they’re particularly interested in the science, in fact. The “blacks are dumber” crowd could have recreated the Scarr study with more modern methodology pretty easily and cheaply – it’s not a particularly complicated study – but they’ve chosen not too, for decades. > [@](#): > > (Of course, it will only settle the question of whether two specific ethnic groups have differences in intelligence that are partly genetically based, it won’t settle the question as regards every ethnic group on the planet). > > As to whether the history of these kinds of debates gives me any pause, no not really. I’m uninterested in the history, nor do I think it’s important or relevant. Again, someone may not like to hear that their group has greater tendencies towards lower IQ, greater selfishness and greed, or for that matter higher diabetes risk, but that isn’t an _excuse_ for lack of appropriate objectivity and humility, and I’m going to call them out for it. If the folks who made these claims didn’t consistently ignore and dismiss good science, and make claims about genetics based on entirely non-genetic data, then maybe I’d “like to hear” their claims a little better. But as long as they continue with this pseudo-scientific approach that just so happens to match, in tone and (lack of good) methodology, the non-scientific white supremacist “racial science” of the past, I’m going to continue to “not like to hear” their bullshit racist claims. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/223 "2016-05-06T00:10:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s evidence for differences in test scores, but test scores don’t tell us anything about genetics. There’s also good evidence of _no correlation whatsoever_ between African admixture and lower test scores, when nurture factors due to race are held constant. That’s nigh-infinitely stronger evidence, in terms of telling us something about genetics, than any test score data alone, which is all that the “blacks are dumber” crowd has got. Well, there’s more than that, and there’s also more than the fact that adoption studies show similar gaps in test scores that persist when African-American children are adopted into white households. There’s plenty of evidence that when you’re looking at a single population (let’s say, a single population of white people) at least 50% of variation in intelligence is due to genetics, with probably another 20% the effect of prenatal environment. I don’t know the extent to which the differences between different ethnic groups are attributable to genetic difference, but my prior is to assume that it’s not zero. When I see a random white person and guess their IQ to be 115, im going to accept as my prior that the difference between my IQ and theirs is largely or mostly genetic in origin. Likewise, when I see two white populations that differ in IQ (say East and West Germany in 1961, or for that matter in the opposite direction today) My prior is that the difference is mostly genetically based. I’m not sure why I wouldn’t make that assumption when the person is non-white. Like you, I think I probably don’t give much of a hearing to arguments from the opposing side, since I’m generally unimpressed with the evidence and reasoning. I think hereditarians would be delighted to run a study correlating West African admixture to intelligence, certainly I would, since it would settle the issue one way or another. Until then, we will just have to wait and see, and we can set our bets whichever way we prefe. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/224 "2016-05-06T00:20:38Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Well, there’s more than that, and there’s also more than the fact that adoption studies show similar gaps in test scores that persist when African-American children are adopted into white households. Which tells us nothing about genetics, especially if (as I believe) society and culture still treat black and white people profoundly differently, whatever the race of their parents. > [@](#): > > I think hereditarians would be delighted to run a study correlating West African admixture to intelligence, certainly I would, since it would settle the issue one way or another. Until then, we will just have to wait and see, and we can set our bets whichever way we prefe. Then why haven’t they done it? It wouldn’t be that hard at all. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/225 "2016-05-06T02:33:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s evidence for differences in test scores, You admit there is evidence. Good. But you are wrong to say this is all there is. I have no desire to hijack this thread, so I suggest you read those older threads and remind yourself of the other evidence (does high-level scholastic achievement ring a bell?). And as I think you know, evidence that points to one scenario does not magically eliminate the evidence that points to another scenario. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/226 "2016-05-06T02:34:52Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You admit there is evidence. Good. But you are wrong to say this is all there is. I have no desire to hijack this thread, so I suggest you read those older threads and remind yourself of the other evidence (does high-level scholastic achievement ring a bell?). > > And as I think you know, evidence that points to one scenario does not magically eliminate the evidence that points to another scenario. Yes, I admit there is evidence for differences in test scores, which has always been very clear and I’ve never denied. I don’t believe this is evidence for any conclusion whatsoever about genes for intelligence. As far as evidence that points to one conclusion or the other about the genes for intelligence, the Scarr study (and a few other lesser known studies, I believe) is the only such evidence that I know of on this question. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/227 "2016-05-06T03:36:17Z")
**Moderator Note** This seems to be turning into a debate about race and racism. This is ATMB, not GD. I know we can’t talk about how racism applies to the rules here without a certain amount of discussion of racism itself, but let’s steer this back around to an ATMB appropriate topic, or move the debate to a new thread in GD. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/228 "2016-05-06T06:15:18Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Uh, what’s that supposed to me? > > I think that some ethnic/racial groups do have greater tendencies to selfishness, low social trust, etc., and that those differences are probably genetically based to some extent. Southern Indians, for a start. Don’t you? I don’t know if Jews are among them or not. […] > > If you want to start a pit thread, go right ahead. [As you wish.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=19310070#post19310070) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/229 "2016-05-06T06:58:43Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Are you familiar with where the idea that Jews and Christians worship different gods comes from, or are you just ignoring it? (Hint, Marcion, who was not a fundamentalist or any sort of protestant for that matter). Which has got fuck-all to do with whether certain Fundie Christians _today_ think Jews don’t worship the same god as themselves. Plus the whole Jews For Jesus conversion drive, that just screams “It’s OK, they worship the same god”, doesn’t it? > [@](#): > > 1. I still think Cuba is a better country than most western liberal democracy, and that the old communist countries of eastern Europe were too. I’ll stand by that. Perhaps not for people like _you_, but certainly for the poorest slice of society, which perhaps is irrelevant to you. Have you even _been_ to Cuba? And visited the poorest of the poor there? I haven’t, but I have friends who have. It’s an OK country, I’m not on some kind of anti-Cuba trip, but _better_ for the poorest slice of society? Than European welfare states? You have to be fucking joking. > [@](#): > > 1. Your comments proved nothing, actually. All you did was show that prosperous societies mostly tend to be liberal democracies. By the **exact same measur** e you used to trumpet Cuba, don’t ‘forget’ that little detail. > [@](#): > > Well, they also mostly tend to be in Europe or Anglo-America. As I pointed out, so did/do the shittiest non-lib dem countries. Nazi Germany. Soviet Russia… > [@](#): > > Whether a society is in Europe or not is a substantially better predictor of how prosperous it is than whether it’s a liberal democracy. That’s why all those former Soviet states in Europe were so prosperous then, and the change to liberal democracy hasn’t led to any uptick for them, has it? > [@](#): > > Africa has plenty of liberal democracies Ha ha ha. Pull the other one, it has bells on. > [@](#): > > , and I think most people would much rather live in Russia, Belarus or Cuba than in any of the African democracies I think you’ll find lots of people happy to live in South Africa rather than any of those places. I work with 3 European immigrants out of 30 people in this office, for example. Plus 7 African ones. > [@](#): > > I don’t know exactly why Europe and Anglo-America are the most prosperous regions of the world Guns, germs and steel. > [@](#): > > , but I doubt it has jack to do with liberal democracy, or for that matter with capitalism. That’s why the Communist bits of it are the most prosperous, right…? > [@](#): > > 1. I didn’t think you were lying Sure. Whatever you say. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/230 "2016-05-06T16:12:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to name a few. There seems to be this never ending optimism that if we debate a certain topic just one more time, we’ll get it right. Frankly, I think it would be useful just to have an Omnibus Pit Thread on “Race Realism”, and take anyone there immediately who opens a new thread on that topic. I agree that this is the best approach. I don’t know if he was serious, but given that the endless discussion on the topic has led to nothing but one race realist thread after another, is deeply insulting to various minorities, geneticists, younger non-minority people, non-racists, and causes poor misunderstood people to be tarnished with the label of “racist” for acting exactly like a racist, it just makes sense to have a permanent Pit-based location for it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/231 "2016-05-06T18:01:39Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > I agree that this is the best approach. I don’t know if he was serious, but given that the endless discussion on the topic has led to nothing but one race realist thread after another, is deeply insulting to various minorities, geneticists, younger non-minority people, non-racists, and causes poor misunderstood people to be tarnished with the label of “racist” for acting exactly like a racist, it just makes sense to have a permanent Pit-based location for it. So since some can’t act like rational adults debate has to be ruined for everyone? Let’s turn this into who can shout the loudest and most obscenely like at a college campus protest? Controversial things belong in GD because if everyone agreed on a subject there’d be no debate. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/232 "2016-05-06T18:03:14Z")
Uh-oh. We need some muscle over here … ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/233 "2016-05-06T18:15:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Can you tell us why it’s so important to be able to call someone a racist in GD? What does that add to the debate? I think we might be looking at this issue the wrong way. If someone is labeling someone a ‘racist’ as a way to de-legitimize an argument or a point of view, then it ought to be moderated. People sometimes have unpopular viewpoints about individual members of ethnic groups or perhaps even ethnic communities themselves, but I don’t think that it’s always appropriate to label someone a racist. But there are times when someone is just being a racist douchebag. “Obama is the Food Stamp President! Blather blither blather!” I think it’s then within the boundaries of fairness to point out that someone is guilty of having potentially racist attitudes. I would probably go along with moderators who say that, even then, it would be best to measure one’s rhetoric, but I would also be slow to pull the trigger on a poster who reacts to comments that are patently offensive. After all, I’m guessing that some of our posters are probably not white. Others might be married to people who aren’t white. Some posters probably have more skin in the game than others. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/234 "2016-05-06T18:34:51Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > I think we might be looking at this issue the wrong way. If someone is labeling someone a ‘racist’ as a way to de-legitimize an argument or a point of view, then it ought to be moderated. People sometimes have unpopular viewpoints about individual members of ethnic groups or perhaps even ethnic communities themselves, but I don’t think that it’s always appropriate to label someone a racist. > > But there are times when someone is just being a racist douchebag. “Obama is the Food Stamp President! Blather blither blather!” I think it’s then within the boundaries of fairness to point out that someone is guilty of having potentially racist attitudes. I would probably go along with moderators who say that, even then, it would be best to measure one’s rhetoric, but I would also be slow to pull the trigger on a poster who reacts to comments that are patently offensive. After all, I’m guessing that some of our posters are probably not white. Others might be married to people who aren’t white. Some posters probably have more skin in the game than others. Critiquing entitlements is racism now? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/235 "2016-05-06T19:14:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Critiquing entitlements is racism now? “Obama is the food stamp President” is “critiquing entitlements” like “your mother’s a $2 whore” is a thesis about genealogy and economics. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/236 "2016-05-06T19:45:03Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Obama is the food stamp President” is “critiquing entitlements” like “your mother’s a $2 whore” is a thesis about genealogy and economics. Obama’s in the top 20% of US presidents, maybe top 10%, but given that we haven’t ever had a president I _like_, he’s still a pretty terrible leader. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/237 "2016-05-06T22:54:02Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > “Obama is the food stamp President” is “critiquing entitlements” like “your mother’s a $2 whore” is a thesis about genealogy and economics. Be that as it may, calling the person racist for that statement is part of why people are rolling their eyes at folks who see racism and hate everywhere. It’s hard to take the Trigglypuffs of the world seriously anymore. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2016, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/238 "2016-05-06T23:44:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Be that as it may, calling the person racist for that statement is part of why people are rolling their eyes at folks who see racism and hate everywhere. It’s hard to take the Trigglypuffs of the world seriously anymore. I am on record as noting that the Teabagger opposition to Obama was not inherently racist, (although a lot of racists signed on). However, a claim that he is the food stamp president is based on the frequent, but false, generalization that food stamps are handouts to black people. There are any number of entitlement programs with which one may disagree, yet not one of them was begun under Obama. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/239 "2016-05-07T00:06:44Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am on record as noting that the Teabagger opposition to Obama was not inherently racist, (although a lot of racists signed on). However, a claim that he is the food stamp president is based on the frequent, but false, generalization that food stamps are handouts to black people. There are any number of entitlement programs with which one may disagree, yet not one of them was begun under Obama. Ah. My family and many of the white families I knew were on food stamps. That’s partially why I don’t see that as a black thing. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/240 "2016-05-07T04:33:14Z")
**Moderator Action** This has turned into a generic debate about racism, which is not an ATMB topic. I am therefore going to close this. Anyone who wishes to continue the discussion/debate about racism may start a new thread in a more appropriate forum or may join one of the many already existing threads. Thread closed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=11)