# Race, Racism and Such **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346 "2016-04-28T15:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/41 "2016-05-01T13:27:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > To be clear, Why do you need call anyone anything in a debate? By the way, look at the HH thread, a debate on the banning of a long-term member. Here’s what one person said: > [@handsomeharry has been banned](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/handsomeharry-has-been-banned/753236/14): > > So he was here for fifteen years, and only recently got around to telling he was a Nazi? Not much of a troll if you can keep a secret like that for fifteen years. Notice how useful the phrase “a Nazi” is here. A precise description is always useful. Here’s what another poster said: > [@](#): > > I don’t really care that **hh** was banned. I never engaged with him much, but he was clearly a jerk. Now, the identifier “a jerk” is a lot more problematic, since it’s a value judgment and not really precise (however accurate it may be). You may wish to ask this poster why he\* decided to use this term; first, though, you may wish to ask whether it’s a useful term in the debate. Is labelling helpful? - I’m pretty sure it’s “he”; the poster’s username is John Mace. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/42 "2016-05-01T14:09:26Z")
The fact that “racist” is treated as an insult in our society is now the main obstacle to defeating racism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/43 "2016-05-01T14:20:56Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The fact that “racist” is treated as an insult in our society is now the main obstacle to defeating racism. “Main obstacle” is putting it a bit strongly, but then, given the hyperbolic claims from Tom that it’s an accusation of “deliberate evil,” maybe hyperbole is the way to proceed :). In any case, yeah, it definitely doesn’t help our society reduce racism to shy away from identifying it when it occurs. Treating it like an accusation of pedophilia or murder or something, saying (as others have) that it’s about the worst thing you can call someone, acting as though you can never identify anything short of genocide as racist, only provides cover to racism and prevents us from a clear, open, and precise discussion of racism. It is, and now I’m not being hyperbolic at all, this board’s single biggest blind spot. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/44 "2016-05-01T14:28:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > … > > Using the noun “racist” is not necessarily an insult. Telling someone they are lying about the beliefs they hold is necessarily an insult. Our current rules forbid the former and allow the latter, which is precisely the opposite of what they should do. You’ve confused me here. The latter being the accusation re: lying? Are you saying that’ allowed anywhere but the pit? I think you might have accidentally twisted the words there. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/45 "2016-05-01T14:47:08Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > You’ve confused me here. The latter being the accusation re: lying? Are you saying that’ allowed anywhere but the pit? I think you might have accidentally twisted the words there. Look at what Tom said above, about how I’m pretending to hold certain beliefs. That’s just an accusation of lying filtered through a thesaurus. He regularly makes such accusations to people he disagrees with, with impunity. I’m not clear on whether he gets away with it because the rules allow it, or because he’s a mod, but the fact is, he gets away with something far more deleterious to debate than the accurate and precise identification of a person’s belief structure. If he’s warned for his accusation against me, I’ll be both astonished and contrite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/46 "2016-05-01T14:51:59Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > By the way, look at the HH thread, a debate on the banning of a long-term member. Here’s what one person said: > > Notice how useful the phrase “a Nazi” is here. A precise description is always useful. If I said “I am a racist” and then you posted : “ **Mace** said he was a racist”, I would not expect you to be moderated since you were quoting my exact words and not calling me a racist, yourself. There’s an important distinction. > [@](#): > > Here’s what another poster said: > Now, the identifier “a jerk” is a lot more problematic, since it’s a value judgment and not really precise (however accurate it may be). You may wish to ask this poster why he\* decided to use this term; first, though, you may wish to ask whether it’s a useful term in the debate. Is labelling helpful? > > - I’m pretty sure it’s “he”; the poster’s username is John Mace. Did you notice which forum that thread under discussion was in? I would not feel that I was adding to a debate if I called him a jerk in GD. In this case, we’re talking about why someone was banned. Yes, it’s useful to use the words that describe why he was banned since WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BAN. In a debate, it adds nothing to call someone a name. Any name. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/47 "2016-05-01T15:01:31Z")
Why isn’t “genetically inferior” a name? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/48 "2016-05-01T15:15:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If I said “I am a racist” and then you posted : “ **Mace** said he was a racist”, I would not expect you to be moderated since you were quoting my exact words and not calling me a racist, yourself. There’s an important distinction. But if you said, “I am a racist,” and then I said, “You, as a racist, fall into these errors…” you’d think that was worth moderating? Am I understanding you correctly? > [@](#): > > I would not feel that I was adding to a debate if I called him a jerk in GD. In this case, we’re talking about why someone was banned. Yes, it’s useful to use the words that describe why he was banned since WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE BAN. In a debate, it adds nothing to call someone a name. Any name. “Call someone a name” is a faulty-premise phrase. Why not use the value-neutral “use a label for someone’s beliefs” instead? Because the reason it’s useful to call HH a Nazi is the same reason it’s useful to say someone is racist: it can be a precise and accurate shorthand for the beliefs they possess that you’re arguing for or against. (Of course most people would argue against them, but that has something to do with our general social attitudes toward racism). The fact that you, and nearly everyone, uses labels all the time for other people makes me extremely skeptical of questions about, like, why do we have to label people, maaaan? We do it because it’s a useful aspect of our language that allows precision, accuracy, and conciseness. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/49 "2016-05-01T15:30:34Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > But if you said, “I am a racist,” and then I said, “You, as a racist, fall into these errors…” you’d think that was worth moderating? Am I understanding you correctly? > > … I hope the mere use of the word racist doesn’t warrant a warning. Your example is one where it should be allowed. You’re pointing out that the person has chosen to self-identify with a group of people. It would depend on the rest of the sentence though. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/50 "2016-05-01T15:35:11Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I hope the mere use of the word racist doesn’t warrant a warning. Your example is one where it should be allowed. You’re pointing out that the person has chosen to self-identify with a group of people. It would depend on the rest of the sentence though. As I said six months ago, I think the word should be acceptable sometimes. In this case, it’s unambiguously applicable. I think there are other cases in which it’s also unambiguously applicable–for example, if someone meets the straightforward dictionary definition of “racist,” by proclaiming that black people are genetically inferior to white people on a relevant axis. Much of the time, it should not be allowed–for example, while I believe there are serious racist implications to voter ID laws, I do not think it should be okay for me (or anyone) to call someone a racist for advocating such laws, because that doesn’t meet a straightforward definition, but is rather an ambiguous position. Also as I said in the other thread, I don’t anticipate ever calling someone a racist in GD. My reasoning for this is much the same as my reasoning for not using the word “niggardly.” In both cases, we have perfectly cromulent, precise, accurate words; but there are those with, let’s call it an imperfect understanding of language, who would find themselves so distracted by their misunderstanding of the word’s penumbra that discussion would be hopelessly hijacked. I don’t anticipate using “racist” as a label any more than I anticipate using “niggardly.” I think it’s a terrible idea to ban either word. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/51 "2016-05-01T15:58:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Too bad. That’s not a good reason. It’s just saying you want to call someone a name. You haven’t answered how it adds to the debate. I don’t see how calling people who are racist “racists” detracts from the debate any less than posters calling other posters “apologists” which is allowed. It’s a descriptor which certainly can be used as an insult however not every use of it is. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/52 "2016-05-01T17:40:54Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t see how calling people who are racist “racists” detracts from the debate any less than posters calling other posters “apologists” which is allowed. > > It’s a descriptor which certainly can be used as an insult however not every use of it is. Can you give some examples how describing someone as a racist does not carry an insult with it? ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/53 "2016-05-01T17:42:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Can you give some examples how describing someone as a racist does not carry an insult with it? We have. Read this thread. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/54 "2016-05-01T17:57:35Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > We have. Read this thread. Didn’t find any, Mr. “We”. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/55 "2016-05-01T17:58:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The fact that “racist” is treated as an insult in our society is now the main obstacle to defeating racism. This’s being disingenuous. You know that the tactic of calling one’s opponent a racist or a sexist is not an attempt at honest debate. It’s an attempt to abuse the horn and halo effect by painting one’s opponent in a very bad light for the purpose of discrediting everything that person says. Not only is the motivation dishonest, allowing people to engage in direct insults completely ruins any chance of productive discussion. You might not think a particular topic worthy of serious debate but it’s not your role here to ruin that for others. Calling someone a name that they are not is a dickheadish move. Would it be appropriate and acceptable to call you a dickhead in situations in which you inaccurately label someone? You see how discourse could rapidly escalate and become completely unproductive? Maybe that’s the goal in vapor inducing topics? In my opinion, I don’t see how allowing that by not sanctioning that behavior would improve discourse. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/56 "2016-05-01T18:00:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I have no idea why you think that repeated accusations of dishonesty are somehow conducive to debates, but as long as you’re going to continue doing so, conversation with you is worthless. Your posts serve simply to demonstrate the terrible priorities of this board: using precise language to describe viewpoints is banned, but the mods themselves engage in well-poisoning like this. It was not an accusation of dishonesty. I suspect that you actually want to believe this stuff, but it is not based on reality, therefore it is pretend. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/57 "2016-05-01T18:00:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > This’s being disingenuous. You know that the tactic of calling one’s opponent a racist or a sexist is not an attempt at honest debate. It’s an attempt to abuse the horn and halo effect by painting one’s opponent in a very bad light for the purpose of discrediting everything that person says. > > Not only is the motivation dishonest, allowing people to engage in direct insults completely ruins any chance of productive discussion. You might not think a particular topic worthy of serious debate but it’s not your role here to ruin that for others. Calling someone a name that they are not is a dickheadish move. Would it be appropriate and acceptable to call you a dickhead in situations in which you inaccurately label someone? You see how discourse could rapidly escalate and become completely unproductive? Maybe that’s the goal in vapor inducing topics? > > In my opinion, I don’t see how allowing that by not sanctioning that behavior would improve discourse. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/58 "2016-05-01T18:04:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This was addressed to exhaustion in the previous thread in which you participated This subject has been “discussed to exhaustion” by you repeatedly in the past. I am not sure what you feel you are accomplishing by discussing it to exhaustion yet again. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/59 "2016-05-01T18:05:45Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I don’t want to be able to call someone a racist. I don’t even stick my toes into the cesspool threads where it’s relevant. What bothers me is that we don’t allow “You’re racist” because that’s somehow personal and needlessly inflames the debate, but we allow “You’re genetically inferior” provided the poster provides a wall-of-text full of bullshit pseudo-scientific, oft-discounted babble because somehow that wall of text provides “supporting evidence”–even though the exact same “supporting evidence” has been taken apart and shown to be worthless over and over and over again. > > We can’t say “you’re a racist” because the assumption is that that makes the argument personal, people get hurt, it goes off the rails. But we can say “you’re genetically inferior” and then it’s on the target to keep hold of themselves, not react emotionally to a deeply personal dig not just at themselves but at their families. > > It’s the imbalance that drives me crazy. We are treating racists with kid gloves, giving them as much rope as they want as often as they want, going out of our way to treat them well out of some loyalty to the ideal of free and honest debate. I feel like we give them \*more \*latitude than we’d give less controversial topics because it’s become the test case for our loyalty to those ideas. But in doing so, we ask a significant number of people to submit to being discussed like specimens in an experiment and hold them to an incredibly high standard in terms of not responding to what are personal attacks. And I can’t help but feel like it’s yet another example of not taking the feelings of minorities quite as seriously as the feelings of the mainstream. Say you have a question: why are men more likely to engage in mass shootings? Should I dismiss you by calling you sexist or look at statistics and see if your claim is true? If your claim is true should I call you sexist or delve into reasons why your claim is true? If my sensibilities as a man are so offended and triggered that I can’t help but to respond by calling you sexist isn’t the burden on me to avoid participation in that thread instead of ruining it for those who are less emotional? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2016, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/60 "2016-05-01T18:06:49Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > The fact that “racist” is treated as an insult in our society is now the main obstacle to defeating racism. Just the opposite. I’d like to see “Racist” in there with Nazi. I want racists to be reviled and hated, so they think long and hard about change their ways or at least stop spewing their brand of hatred. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=4)