# Race, Racism and Such **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346 "2016-04-28T15:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/121 "2016-05-02T14:27:40Z")
Since all the mods seem to be congregating in this thread, I’d like to point out there is [an active thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=791091) in this form that is over a week old and that no mod has posted in yet. Several of us are waiting some sort of explanation. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/122 "2016-05-02T14:39:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If you want to take my refusal to mean that I’m dancing the tango with a trio of drunken penguins, dude, knock yourself out. You can, and clearly will, take it however you’d like. Actually, there is no reason to make any assumptions any more. Your behavior speaks for itself. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Not to answer for LHoD, but the underlying situation is frustrating. I’m sure it is. I find lots of things here frustrating myself. I’m not sure how arguing the same issue over and over again in ATMB makes it less frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/123 "2016-05-02T14:42:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Actually, there is no reason to make any assumptions any more. Your behavior speaks for itself. Indeed–my behavior is wanting to discuss the issue, not to discuss discussing the issue. That sort of meta conversation is interesting to you but completely uninteresting to me. Dammit, I’m doing it! I’ll stop. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/124 "2016-05-02T15:03:11Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. > > The rule against calling a poster a racist derives from the rule prohibiting insults directed at posters that will cause threads to crash and burn. > > That is why there is no prohibition against pointing out that an idea is racist, but one must still refrain from calling the poster racist. > > It may be “precise language” to note that a morbidly obese person is fat, but it is still an insult call such a person fat. I don’t think comparing the use of the term “racist” to using the term “fat” to describe someone who’s morbidly obese bolsters the argument that the term racist is always going to be an insult when directed at a poster rather than “usually, but not always” going to be an insult. “Fat” after all is simply an insulting way of saying “overweight” or “obese”. That is why “fat” is considered an insult while the use of phrase “overweight” certainly can be insulting, but isn’t always considered to be insulting. For your analogy to work there would have to be a non-insulting descriptor one could use in place of “racist” analogous to calling “overweight” as opposed to “fat”. However, there is none unless you want to argue for using something like “bigot” or something similar, which has already been put on the kibosh. “Racist” is simply a descriptor that has come to be seen as insulting because being a racist is now a taboo in our society. Of course that is not to say that using it to describe someone can be insulting and it clearly usually is intended to be, but it isn’t always. When we refer to the scientists who thought up Eugenics as “racists”, we’re not insulting them, implying they’re evil or even stupid, but we’re describing them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/125 "2016-05-02T15:44:37Z")
Since we are allowed to say: “Those ideas are racist” The only thing we are missing by not being able to say: “You are a racist” is the opportunity to label someone with a negative label. All this talk about the need for linguistic accuracy is nonsense. “Those ideas are racist” tells us all we need to know in a debate. In fact, the idea that we can identify posters as “being a racist” is fraught with issues about the accuracy of such a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/126 "2016-05-02T17:31:15Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Indeed–my behavior is wanting to discuss the issue, not to discuss discussing the issue. Like I said, you just want to discuss it for the sake of discussing it, not because you have any objective in discussing it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/127 "2016-05-03T00:44:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Since we are allowed to say: > > “Those ideas are racist” > > The only thing we are missing by not being able to say: > > “You are a racist” > > is the opportunity to label someone with a negative label. All this talk about the need for linguistic accuracy is nonsense. “Those ideas are racist” tells us all we need to know in a debate. In fact, the idea that we can identify posters as “being a racist” is fraught with issues about the accuracy of such a claim. 1. Is your premise true? Is it the case that, generally speaking, I can say in GD that “Those ideas are racist” and not be moderated for it? 2. If your premise is true, what is the difference in your mind between “You are a racist” and “Your ideas are racist”? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/128 "2016-05-03T01:22:09Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I don’t think comparing the use of the term “racist” to using the term “fat” to describe someone who’s morbidly obese bolsters the argument that the term racist is always going to be an insult when directed at a poster rather than “usually, but not always” going to be an insult. > > “Fat” after all is simply an insulting way of saying “overweight” or “obese”. That is why “fat” is considered an insult while the use of phrase “overweight” certainly can be insulting, but isn’t always considered to be insulting. No. Overweight and obese are simply euphemisms for fat. And, in any event, telling a person (outside of a doctor’s appointment) that he or she is overweight or obese is going to raise the same emotional reaction as calling him or her fat. You are taking us back to the old “_it is not an insult if it is true_” schtick that makes no sense in actual human interactions. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/129 "2016-05-03T01:34:06Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. Overweight and obese are simply euphemisms for fat. And, in any event, telling a person (outside of a doctor’s appointment) that he or she is overweight or obese is going to raise the same emotional reaction as calling him or her fat. You are taking us back to the old “_it is not an insult if it is true_” schtick that makes no sense in actual human interactions. Well, one context where it’s relevant is if someone is in a doctor’s appointment. Another is in a debate thread on health, where someone declares that at 450 pounds, they’re perfectly healthy. If they’re the one who is bringing up their weight, it’d be perfectly reasonable, and not an insult, and highly relevant, to say, “Actually, at 450 pounds, you’re morbidly obese, and here’s the problem with that.” Saying the equivalent of what’s allowed here–“Actually, at 450 pounds, your weight is 275 pounds above what the guidelines say is a healthy weight”–removes the label, the putative insult; but it’s circumlocutory, doesn’t change the meaning, and doesn’t make it less insulting. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/130 "2016-05-03T01:34:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I don’t think that’s the case. Could you provide some examples in today’s discourse where the right is trying to do what the left is doing on campuses, as well as elsewhere? The left is (currently) notorious for doing that on campuses where the social attitudes trend left. The right does it in many, (not all), evangelical churches, school board meetings, local political situations, etc. Trump has been pushing a dismissive claim against “the establishment” for months,\* and even if he is no true conservative, his followers are certainly on the right and they swallow it and regurgitate it freely. Over in another thread, one poster refused to even discuss the opinions of Robert Reich, dismissing that centrists words as coming from the “hard left.” We have seen eight years of people on the right refusing to consider anything Barack Obama says because they falsely accuse him of being a socialist, (to say nothing accusing him of being a Muslim or a Kenyan). - Yes, Sanders is doing the same thing, but I have not denied that the left engages in that practice while you have denied that the right does. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/131 "2016-05-03T01:38:09Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Saying the equivalent of what’s allowed here–“Actually, at 450 pounds, your weight is 275 pounds above what the guidelines say is a healthy weight”–removes the label, the putative insult; but it’s circumlocutory, doesn’t change the meaning, and doesn’t make it less insulting. No. It does remove the direct insult, focusing on the facts at issue and not on the person. It is not a circumlocution, but a direct reference to the facts, regardless of any specific person or the personality involved. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/132 "2016-05-03T05:40:45Z")
Staying out of the rest of this sisyphean mess, but this: > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Fine–change that to, “…Everyone from Africa” when you know you’re talking to someone from Africa. Magically it’s no longer personal? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, that would be moderated, too. is not correct, since AFAIK no one has ever been modded for saying Sub-Saharan Africans are on average intellectually inferior in threads where this Sub-Saharan African posts, and that’s saying we’re all genetically inferior. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/133 "2016-05-03T06:25:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Staying out of the rest of this sisyphean mess, but this: > > is not correct, since AFAIK no one has ever been modded for saying Sub-Saharan Africans are on average intellectually inferior in threads where this Sub-Saharan African posts, and that’s saying we’re all genetically inferior. Woah: careful. A statement about the average or mean member of a population says nothing about any given individual member of the population. I recognize bigots pushing these discussions into GD often fail to express this point about statistics, but it deserves emphasis. The mean body of water may be larger than than the mean surface rock, but both can vary a great deal. The former includes bird baths, lakes and the Pacific Ocean. The latter includes pebbles and Yosemite. When this fact isn’t put front and center by the racial differentiator, it’s appropriate to treat the general argument with skepticism. It’s a flag. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/134 "2016-05-03T10:32:39Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Woah: careful. A statement about the average or mean member of a population says nothing about any given individual member of the population. It’s a statement _about_ the population as a whole (the _average_ SSAfrican is intellectually inferior _because_ SSAfricans are genetically inferior in the intellectual realm \* as a whole\*) , and one I’m a member of, without regard for where on that spectrum any SSAfrican Dopers might happen to fall, so therefore it’s a statement _about_ me whether the stats shake out that way or not. It’s no different than a statement about “all Republicans” - you’re making the mistake of reading the “average” as a statement of statistical rigour, whereas I’m seeing it for the non-scientific hedging it truly is. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/135 "2016-05-03T12:13:33Z")
Well, there goes the boulder again. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/136 "2016-05-03T13:43:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Staying out of the rest of this sisyphean mess, but this: > > is not correct, since AFAIK no one has ever been modded for saying Sub-Saharan Africans are on average intellectually inferior in threads where this Sub-Saharan African posts, and that’s saying we’re all genetically inferior. It’s not saying every SSA is genetically inferior. That would be like claiming all SSAs are genetically inferior because, on average, the incidence of Sickle Cell Anemia is higher in SSA than in Europe. But we KNOW that most SSAs do not have any alleles related to SCA. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/137 "2016-05-03T16:07:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not saying every SSA is genetically inferior. I didn’t say it did. It _is_ claiming SSAs,\* as a group\*, are inferior to non-SSAs _as a group_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/138 "2016-05-03T18:11:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I didn’t say it did. It _is_ claiming SSAs,\* as a group\*, are inferior to non-SSAs _as a group_. No, it’s not. You are inferring that from the statement, and it’s a terrible inference. The genetic make-up of any individual is not determined by the average of any group he or she happens to belong to. Americans are, on average, taller than Mexicans. I don’t know the exact humber, but let’s say it’s 5’9" for US males and 5’6" for Mexican males. If I choose one random guy from the US and one random guy from Mexico, which one will be taller? _You can’t tell me because not every Mexican is shorter than every American._ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/139 "2016-05-03T18:16:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, it’s not. You are inferring that from the statement, and it’s a terrible inference. The genetic make-up of any individual is not determined by the average of any group he or she happens to belong to. > > Americans are, on average, taller than Mexicans. I don’t know the exact humber, but let’s say it’s 5’9" for US males and 5’6" for Mexican males. If I choose one random guy from the US and one random guy from Mexico, which one will be taller? > > _You can’t tell me because not every Mexican is shorter than every American._ This doesn’t seem to conflict with what **Mr Dibble** said. “Americans are, on average, taller than Mexicans” seems pretty comparable (in the way the statement is framed, rather than the morality or accuracy of the statement) to assertions like “white people are, on average, inherently intellectually superior, because of genetics, to black people” or “Jews are, on average, inherently greedier and less trustworthy than non-Jews”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/140 "2016-05-03T19:08:09Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This doesn’t seem to conflict with what **Mr Dibble** said. “Americans are, on average, taller than Mexicans” seems pretty comparable (in the way the statement is framed, rather than the morality or accuracy of the statement) to assertions like “white people are, on average, inherently intellectually superior, because of genetics, to black people” or “Jews are, on average, inherently greedier and less trustworthy than non-Jews”. It conflicts with this - > [@](#): > > AFAIK no one has ever been modded for saying Sub-Saharan Africans are on average intellectually inferior in threads where this Sub-Saharan African posts, and that’s saying we’re all genetically inferior. It is not saying that “we’re all genetically inferior” any more than saying “Mexicans are shorter on average than Americans” is saying “all Mexicans are shorter than Americans”. Averages apply to groups, not individuals. That’s not unscientific, and it is not hedging. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=8)