# Race, Racism and Such **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 28, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346 "2016-04-28T15:58:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/141 "2016-05-03T19:19:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It conflicts with this - It is not saying that “we’re all genetically inferior” any more than saying “Mexicans are shorter on average than Americans” is saying “all Mexicans are shorter than Americans”. > > Averages apply to groups, not individuals. That’s not unscientific, and it is not hedging. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s one way to read it – I read it with an unwritten “on average” or “as a group” (i.e. “we’re all genetically inferior _on average_”). Perhaps a clunky way to say it. If we’re wrong, I’m sure **Mr Dibble** will chime in. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/142 "2016-05-03T19:28:57Z")
“Group X is, on average, different from group Y” is not a clunky way of saying anything. What’s clunky is making up a phrase and inserting it, and then claiming it is unscientific. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/143 "2016-05-03T19:29:30Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > It was not an accusation of dishonesty. I suspect that you actually want to believe this stuff, but it is not based on reality, therefore it is pretend. It’s my understanding that accusations of dishonesty are not banned in any forums other than GD and Elections. Is this incorrect? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/144 "2016-05-03T19:30:50Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It’s my understanding that accusations of dishonesty are not banned in any forums other than GD and Elections. Is this incorrect? Good grief, I hope you’re wrong. What a terrible rule that would be. I find it remarkable that people find “dishonest” as an accusation, however disguised, to be less offensive than “racist.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/145 "2016-05-03T19:44:48Z")
ISTR seeing a moderator state this explicitly. But without doing an all-out search for that, it seems pretty much implied [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=751506). ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/146 "2016-05-03T19:53:31Z")
> [@Does "Deliberately Distorted" = "Lied"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/does-deliberately-distorted-lied/722598/27): > > Just for the record. Calling out on someone for lying is only a rule in Great Debates. > It’s discouraged in other forums, but there’s no actual rule for it in any other forum outside of GD and doing something akin to calling “bullshit” on something that is, indeed, dubious isn’t forbidden. This may be what you’re thinking of - though it applies to Elections forum too. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/147 "2016-05-03T20:07:56Z")
FWIW, this forum could really use a similar rule. Tensions mount here, and it’s real easy to toss off an accusation that your opponent is arguing dishonestly; Lord knows I’ve been tempted, but I’ve tried really hard to avoid such an accusation (I’m too lazy to go back and check all my posts in this thread to see if I’ve successfully avoided it). There’s no real advantage I can see to allowing folks to accuse others of dishonest behavior, except that it’s fun to do so. That, I think, should be what the pit is for. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/148 "2016-05-03T20:23:50Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It conflicts with this - It is not saying that “we’re all genetically inferior” any more than saying “Mexicans are shorter on average than Americans” is saying “all Mexicans are shorter than Americans”. > > Averages apply to groups, not individuals. That’s not unscientific, and it is not hedging. > > Regards, > Shodan “We’re all”, here, means “we are all, as a group”, not “we are all, each and individually” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/149 "2016-05-03T20:29:46Z")
Then, AFAICT, the statement is not objectionable. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/150 "2016-05-03T20:41:37Z")
Well, other than being a misleading (and inflammatory) way of putting it … ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/151 "2016-05-03T21:00:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s one way to read it – I read it with an unwritten “on average” or “as a group” (i.e. “we’re all genetically inferior _on average_”). Perhaps a clunky way to say it. If we’re wrong, I’m sure **Mr Dibble** will chime in. Only in the sense that any individual of any race is “genetically inferior” to any other individual of any race who has a higher IQ. And that’s what we’re talking about-- IQ. If I say that SSAs are, on average. lower in intelligence (as measured by IQ test) than Europeans, that does not tell us how any random European compares to any random SSA. You cannot jump from “on average” to “all”, nor can you assign some genetic value to an individual based on the genetic average of what group you put the individual in. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/152 "2016-05-03T21:13:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s one way to read it – I read it with an unwritten “on average” or “as a group” (i.e. “we’re all genetically inferior _on average_”). Perhaps a clunky way to say it. If we’re wrong, I’m sure **Mr Dibble** will chime in. “We’re all genetically inferior on average” is not just clunky, it’s nonsensical. Once you say “we are all” you are saying “we, each and every one of us, is…”. Unless, that is, it cane be determined that every member of Group A actually is “genetically inferior” (by whatever manner) to every member of Group B. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/153 "2016-05-03T21:18:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > FWIW, this forum could really use a similar rule. Tensions mount here, and it’s real easy to toss off an accusation that your opponent is arguing dishonestly; Lord knows I’ve been tempted, but I’ve tried really hard to avoid such an accusation (I’m too lazy to go back and check all my posts in this thread to see if I’ve successfully avoided it). > > There’s no real advantage I can see to allowing folks to accuse others of dishonest behavior, except that it’s fun to do so. That, I think, should be what the pit is for. No rule needed to self moderate. No rule needed to hold yourself to a higher standard when confronted with assholery. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/154 "2016-05-03T21:18:55Z")
The larger point from **Mr Dibble** , I think, is that it’s offensive and racist to say “black people are, on average, inherently inferior to white people in intelligence”, even if that statement doesn’t assert that every single black person is inferior. “They’re mostly and usually inferior” is still racist, even if it’s not as racist as “they’re all always inferior”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/155 "2016-05-03T21:36:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The larger point from **Mr Dibble** , I think, is that it’s offensive and racist to say “black people are, on average, inherently inferior to white people in intelligence”, even if that statement doesn’t assert that every single black person is inferior. “They’re mostly and usually inferior” is still racist, even if it’s not as racist as “they’re all always inferior”. That’s unfortunate. It’s almost certainly true that one group is “on average” less intelligent than the other group, as measured by \. As long as no one is saying “you, **poster** , are less intelligent than some other person”, then I don’t see the problem. There is no guarantee that you will not be offended on this MB by things people post. In fact, I would hate to see what a MB would like in which no offensive posts were allowed. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/156 "2016-05-03T21:59:15Z")
I think, given the long history of threads on the topic of genetic inferiority, that I and others have become sensitized to what now reads as a code for a racist sentiment. Once a particular statement has been de-bunked, often repeatedly, about the genetic superiority of a group, the idea is re-introduced in a new and improved format. I agree that the statement “group A performed better in test B than group c” should be uncontroversial. Board history may make this type of statement seem like the retread of previous threads, however. Threads and case may vary. I also agree that one ought to be able to call someone a racist if they clearly and obiviously meet the standards. It is verboten, so that’s what the Pit is for. It does seem that in an attempt to encourage free speach and the open exchange of ideas, we (as a Community) often bend over backwards to accommodate users whose views are generally offensive. Overall, I agree that having a more diverse community on the Board is healthy. It is occasionally uncomfortable and even repugnant, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/157 "2016-05-03T22:18:54Z")
I stopped participating in those threads awhile back since it was, indeed, the same stuff regurgitated over and over again, more often than not by the same posters. But the sad fact is, it’s exactly like a lot of other topics: Climate Change Minimum Wage “Judicial Activism” Gun Control SSM etc, etc, etc. Just to name a few. There seems to be this never ending optimism that if we debate a certain topic just one more time, we’ll get it right. Frankly, I think it would be useful just to have an Omnibus Pit Thread on “Race Realism”, and take anyone there immediately who opens a new thread on that topic. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/158 "2016-05-03T22:40:13Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > No rule needed to self moderate. No rule needed to hold yourself to a higher standard when confronted with assholery. Well, yeah. I’ll continue trying to avoid this, regardless of the rules status. I’m thinking kind of selfishly: it’s a pretty goddamned annoying thing, when folks who suffer from a failure of imagination assume that the only reason you can be disagreeing with them is a dishonest refusal to admit you know they’re right. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/159 "2016-05-03T23:30:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s unfortunate. It’s almost certainly true that one group is “on average” less intelligent than the other group, as measured by \. As long as no one is saying “you, **poster** , are less intelligent than some other person”, then I don’t see the problem. There is no guarantee that you will not be offended on this MB by things people post. In fact, I would hate to see what a MB would like in which no offensive posts were allowed. I think it should be allowed, and it should be allowed to accurately characterize it. This board comes close enough that I’m not complaining particularly hard – I can call the assertion racist, which I will do if I feel that an assertion fits the qualifications. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2016, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346/160 "2016-05-04T01:24:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it should be allowed, and it should be allowed to accurately characterize it. It is allowed to characterize it, accurately or otherwise. You just can’t call people names, which is not necessary in order to “characterize it”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/race-racism-and-such/753346.md?page=9)