Race: Yea or nay?

Not more than transient and arbitrary ones, no. Less so than putting green eyed and blue eyed people in separate categories, since there are so many people that don’t share the supposed physical characteristics of the “race” they belong to. There are plenty of pale “black people”, for example.

Because their parents consider themselves black or white not because of some biological reason. “Black” isn’t a skin color; there are “whites” darker than some “blacks”. It’s a social category. We call people “black” because some of their ancestors are known to have came from Africa and we still tend to hold to the old racist standard of treating “white” as purity and “black” as contamination. If you’ve got a little bit of “black blood” in you you’re contaminated and not “white”, while the guy who has more “white” ancestors than “black” still doesn’t count as “white”.

It’s a combination of leftover racism and essentialism; treating things as if they had some kind of unalterable essence. It’s treating “black” or “white” people as parts of groups not because they are actually genetically similar to each other but because they have some sort of mystic essence passed down generation by generation that can’t ever change. Very common among conservatives, who freak out over the idea that such near categories aren’t absolutes, that species can change or that people aren’t always neatly, innately “male” and “female” or “black” and “white”.

Instead of mountain ranges, consider the Sahara desert, the Himalayas/Siberia/Mongolian desert/ Torres Strait and the Berring strait.

And I’m not suggesting we divide homo sapiens in subspecies either.

I considered all of them, and they are not a significant barrier for gene flow between populations. Nothing is anymore.

If you traveled back in time 12k years ago, you might have found a situation where isolated populations existed, but I’m not 100% sure of that. But even then, the isolation never lasted very long (in evolutionary terms). It doesn’t make sense to have a subspecies designation that changes every 1,000 years or so.

John, you are absolutely right. If you take a snap-shot in time, you will find numerous ‘clusters’ that are nothing but coincidence. Humans have seperated and re-joined in groups and individually many times over eons. The genetic distribution is constantly varying.

And terms like ‘species’ and ‘sub-species’ look like they need to dumped along with ‘race’. I can’t find consistent definitions for those either. ‘Species’ seems to be maintained so that traditional categorization appears consistent, and ‘sub-species’ seems to be used just to avoid designation of numerous new ‘species’. The relationship between any two conventionally defined species may be unrelated to that relationship between others. The same applies to species:sub-species, and sub-specie:sub-specie within a single specie. The field of biology seems to recognize this, and is implementing new forms of taxonomy. Unfortunately, evolution has thoughtlessly failed to provided us a simple grid to categorize the variety of life. I think evolution should have taken a course in Effective Visual Presentation.

Pretty much.

One problem we have is that, historically, species were defined more by morphological differences. Then we went to something like the BSC concept, and now we have simply DNA testing and analysis. In many cases, the DNA analysis makes us split groups rather than unite groups.

Subspecies is a bit problematic because it is a bit more subjective than the term “species”, and there is no recognized body to bless any given designation. “Species”, at least, has a oversight body to enforce some semblence of uniformity. At the higher level taxa, the trend is to US DNA analysis and cladistics to untangle the historical mess we were left with.

Bottom line, though, we should recognize that “species” is a human construct. Nature doesn’t really care. Populations mix, split off, and re-mix later on all the time. Populations that we put in different genera can breed and produce fertile offspring. Not necessarily in the wild, but in captivity. And if conditions in the wild change? Who knows.

We are now finding that the human and chimp line probably split (maybe 10M years ago), recombined (maybe 6M years ago) and then split again (maybe 5M years ago). Our more recent ancestor, some form of H. erectus, split to form Neanderthals and us some 500k yeara ago, but it looks like some of “us” recombined with Neanderthals about 30 - 40k years ago.

Mathematical simulations show that all living humans share a complete set of ancestors only about 10k years ago-- meaning everyone alive at that time was either an ancestor of everyone alive today or an ancestor of no one alive today. Those same simulations show that you only need to go back 3,000 years before we all share at least one common ancestor.

To the western eye, a native of New Guinea looks a lot like a sub Sahara African, but he’s probably more closely related to someone in Sweden than he is to someone in African. Not to mention that sub Sahara Africans are united by dark pigmentation, but there are different shades of pigmentation, and different facial features seen across that continent. Throw in populations like the Bushmen and the pygmies, and it gets even more complicated.

There really ain’t no mountain high enough, ain’t no river wide enough, to keep us from boinking each other.

Well not me and you specifically. :smiley:

How you doin’, TP. :wink:

No, I don’t believe in biologically determined races. For if it were the case that there were such things, then there would be no confusion about how they look.

Say what? you say. Of course it’s easy to lump people together by looks. I say it’s only easy if you live in a society where there are only a few fairly homogenous groups. Like the American South, in most places, for much of its history. Sure, there were some “coloreds” thrown in, but that does not mean one could not tell the difference between “pure white” and “pure black.”

But what does it mean to be black? Is an Ethiopian “black” in the same way as a Nigerian is? How about an Egyptian, a Sudanese, or a Khosian? Or a black American? If these groups gel into one biologically, then why is it so easy to tell a Nigerian from a Khosian from an Ethiopian?

To take another example: Is a Scandanavian “white” in the same way that an Irish person is? How about a Portugese, Russian, or Italian? Or Egyptian! (there are many Egyptians, as well as everyone else, who claim whiteness too). If these groups gel into one group biologically, then why is it often so easy to distinguish them?

And to ask the question in yet another way, why is it so difficult sometimes to distinguish a Mexican from an East Indian from a light-skinned black person from a Philipino from a Lebanese from an Australian Aboriginese? When I lived in northern New Jersey, just about everyone I encountered was “swarthy.” You had to wait till they opened their mouths and listened to their accents (if they had any) to figure out “what” they were.

To draw a comparison with dogs, mutts are clearly mutts because they contain a mosaic of different features. But chows are chows, Portugese water dogs are Portugese water dogs, chihuahuas are chihuahuas. There’s no way you’re ever going to mistake a greyhound for a bloodhound, or a Scottish terrier for a English bulldog. Dog breeds don’t “grade” into each other. Humans do.

A native Russian and a native Mongolian. Without knowing anything about the way they look, would you lump them together or split them? Should you put the Russian in the same box as the Spaniard? Does the Mongolian go into the same box as the Philipino? Inquiring minds want to know.

If anyone ever listens to NPR’s Radio Lab podcasts, there’s a good one about race (just scroll through the archives to find it). There’s a story about a guy who is, according to the show hosts, undeniably phenotypically “black.” The guy submitted his DNA to one of those places that tell you how much European/African/Asian/whatever is “in” you. Guess what? The guy had NO markers for black African ancestry. It blew his mind, as well as mine. So if that doesn’t tell you something about how woo-woo “race” is, I don’t know what would.

Uh look, I’m flattered and all, but I just started seeing somebody, anybody, so uh, well it’s not you, its just the wrong time, OK? Hey, I’ve got to go, I forgot to uh, do something.

If you look at the US, we’re a complete mess, racially. We have what we think of as races, but as soon as you start looking at it, you realize that it’s not biological.

We have thousands (probably 10s of thousands) of “blacks” who entered into the white population by passing. We have “blacks” who get their DNA analyzed only to find out they have more European ancestry than African. We have Native Americans with blond hair and blue eyes. We have Hispanics who are mostly Native American, some who are mostly African, and some who are mostly European. We have Middle Easterners who can look European or African or something in between.

And that’s just off the top of my head.

And for anyone who says: Well, I can tell someone from Sweden from someone from Nigeria… Take a trip from Sweden to Nigeria via central Europe, Turkey, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and then Ethiopia. You’ll see a continuum of looks along your way. Travel from Beijing to Berlin (as I posted earlier), and you’ll see a continuum. Travel from Taiwan through Southeast Asia and into Melanesia/Polynesia and you’ll see a continuum.

The closet you’ll come to population isolates are in places like the Andaman Islands, but even they have been subject to gene flow from outsiders.

“Biologically determined races”? Count me down as another who does not quite know what that is supposed to imply.

I will reiterate here what I have stated elsewhere. “Race” is occasionally a modestly useful term when it is used with full appreciation of its limits as a means of subdividing humanity and not taken too seriously. If we are trying to understand the biologic complexities of human subpopulations, their interconnectedness and their differences, their past migration patterns, and how different genes and phenotypes are distributed, then imposing the arbitrary categorization based on particular external features and cultural self identifications can only inhibit the discovery of scientifically more valid means of organizing the data sets. Sometimes better means of subdivisions are not yet extant, and the fuzzy, limited tool of subdividing by race suffices to give at least some crude division for risk factors until a more precise means is available. Sometimes it is better than nothing. But sometimes not.

That’s the scientific answer. Sociologically I believe that we all will use superficial appearances as a sloppy but quick means of prejudging prior to the acquisition of additional information, and race is part of the prejudgement we all do. For example, on the way home today I heard a discussion about Ernest Withers, a news photographer who was allowed access to many Black civil rights organizations in the 60’s, trusted because he was Black, and who, it appears, actually functioned as an FBI informant, while, according to the interviewee, a fellow Black reporter of the time, no White newsperson was given that trust.

We humans cannot help but to subdivide into “us” and "them"s. To make an illusion to great philospher Dr. Seuss, butterside up and butterside down, so long as it is a difference we can see then it is good enough to make some us and some them and once so done, the difference is very very real.

Or to move up the literary chain some, to Vonnegut, “race” functions as one of many possible “granfalloons” and informs little (yes maybe a little, but only a little) about “karass”.

DSeid, which side did you put the butter on in that post?

So how could they test the guy for “specific markers” of African Ancestry if race is a social construct?

Because “race” and African ancestry aren’t the same thing.

What Der Trihs said. I can look for specific markers that link you to your lineage back a hundred years, for instance. Does that make you and your lineage a separate “race”? No, it simply means that you share certain markers because you’re related. On the other hand, some of those markers could simply “fall out” of the lineage over time, due to admixture with people not carrying those genes. Does that mean you still can’t trace your ancestry to your lineage? That’s what obviously happened to the dude referenced above.

No one is saying that black Americans don’t tend to be more related genetically to each other than to whites. But that’s kind of a facile argument, wouldn’t you say? Sub-Saharan Africans, IIRC, are more genetically related to Europeans than they are to Asians. Does that mean that “blacks” and “whites” can be viewed as a separate race than “Asians?” Why or why not?

No, I would say your argument is facile. Because A and B are more similar to each other than they are to C does not mean that A is the same as B.

No they aren’t, that’s why Semitic people aren’t the same ‘race’ as Sub-Saharan blacks and why Charlize Theron is not considered black even though she was born in Africa.

Snip.

Humans have less subtle variation on our physical expression because we have not deliberately bred as hard for specific variation. Our differences are more subtle but certainly present. For example let us consider a couple consisting of a very dark skinned african type man, and a very light hued nordic type woman. Both partners display the full compliment of features that we would commonly associate with their respective type categories. Their children will almost never resemble either of their parent’s types strongly, rather being a blend of characteristics. However, if the parents were to have children with a partner of similar type to themselves the children would almost always resemble the type group. The variation on type is slight, limited to relatively irrelevant metrics such as height, or slight variations in build. This is exactly what we see when we view the results of domestic breed interaction in dogs or other livestock. A cross between a chow and bulldog will give you a spectrum of offspring sharing the characteristics of one parent more strongly but resembling neither fully.

The concept of race is a socially constructed one certainly; but to argue that there are no visual types that can be determined in humans, nor that understanding those types may have some value to us, is sticking our heads in the sand for politeness sake. Noting physical characteristics says nothing about a person’s quality, intelligence, or character. It is just a way for us to begin to form a picture of a person in our head, the very literal placing a face with a name.

Please read what I wrote in post #45 and then tell us where you draw your boundaries for these races.

No one is arguing that humans in different locations don’t look different. But those differences are clinal, and there is no clear boundary to separate the different types. You can draw ever more tighter cirlces around “types” and basically never finish.

I draw them based purely on the total combination of physical traits that are apparent in the areas of greatest physical homogenization. As I mentioned in my original response, “race” is a bad word to use since it is so outdated and carries so much baggage. As to physical types, the usefulness of any description is of limited value, but the OP asked if they exist at all. I think they certainly do, though I’m no biologist or taxonomist. I’m an artist, so I have a sharp eye for physical detail. It is obvious to me the differences between Han Chinese, and Koreans for example. I disagree that you would be lost to a never ending spiral of specialization. There are only so many areas of physical homogenization among humans, and those are rapidly declining due to improved travel. Nevertheless they do still exist, and I think that they are useful as a physical descriptor, nothing more. If someone asks you what another looks like what do you say if you have no type or other information to rely back upon? " um…male, average height, average weight, brown hair, brown eyes. Okay looking I guess." That could describe loads of people and gives no information about the person at all. Contrast that with this: " Looks Indian/Hindi, average height, average weight. Okay looking I guess." That single change now provides a wealth of probable physical characteristics to the person that your describing the other person to. They know that he probably has medium toned skin, dark hair and eyes, has a combination of physical features that appear more like caucasians than africans or asians…