# Rachel Corey in Gaza: it takes an American death..... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999 "2003-03-17T14:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/61 "2003-03-18T14:31:50Z")
Yes, a tragic accident. Does anyone believe that the Israeli govt’s policy is to kill non-combatant Americans? This woman knew she was putting her life in danger. Those who support her cause should mourn her death, but celebrate that she gave her life in battle. Can’t do that? Then you don’t believe in the cause. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/62 "2003-03-18T14:35:23Z")
And this is supposed to make me think that standing in front of a bulldozer is a smart idea? It’s not a smart idea on a construction site in Pennsylvania, and it’s not a smart idea in Israel or in Gaza. She did a stupid thing, standing in front of a bulldozer. It’s sad that she died because of it, because that was easily avoidable by not standing in front of heavy equipment. I have about the same amount of sympathy for her as I do for anyone who does something incredibly dangerous and dies because of it, which is that it’s a tragedy they died, and a tragedy they contributed to with their own error in judgment. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/63 "2003-03-18T14:42:53Z")
So catsix, someone who put’s their life in danger for a cause they believe in desevrves to die? The IDF were just about to demolish the home of a family of 12, who at the time were still in it. If the driver wasn’t aware she was there (given the evidence an imposissbilty), why did he, run her over with the blade, then put the bulldozer in reverse and run over her again? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/64 "2003-03-18T15:12:25Z")
This business about putting the bulldozer in reverse and running over her again… Are you suggesting that somewhere the order was given, “Kill the American!”, and then the dozer ran over her, and backed up on purpose just in case 50 tons of steel didn’t kill her the first time over? Why do we assume such evil motives? If a car backs up over a person in a parking lot, we don’t assume it’s murder. We assume someone wasn’t paying attention, unless proven otherwise. The Israelis have nothing to gain through killing an American, and a lot to lose. America is their ally, and they don’t want to anger the American ‘street’. I see no motive here, and lots of opportunity for errors that could have led to this. So, my assumption until proven otherwise is that this was a tragic accident, and nothing more. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/65 "2003-03-18T15:24:57Z")
No, I am certainly not suggesting that this killing was ordered and yes the Israeli driver also may well of been aware of her nationality (earlier she climbed into the cab to persuade the driver not to demolish the house). it certainly wasn’t done for any strategic advantage. But I do know a few internationals in Palestine and they have been threatened numerous times, with guns and grenades by the IDF with very little provacation. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/66 "2003-03-18T15:31:47Z")
Surrounded by murderous Palestinian terrorist thugs, screamed at by dupes of lying Islamicist propaganda and you wonder at the nervousness of young IDF peacekeepers? [explanation of post] Wonderful what adjectives can do, isn’t it? [/explanation of post] ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/67 "2003-03-18T15:31:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*This business about putting the bulldozer in reverse and running over her again… Are you suggesting that somewhere the order was given, “Kill the American!”, and then the dozer ran over her, and backed up on purpose just in case 50 tons of steel didn’t kill her the first time over? > > Why do we assume such evil motives? If a car backs up over a person in a parking lot, we don’t assume it’s murder. We assume someone wasn’t paying attention, unless proven otherwise. > > The Israelis have nothing to gain through killing an American, and a lot to lose. America is their ally, and they don’t want to anger the American ‘street’. I see no motive here, and lots of opportunity for errors that could have led to this. So, my assumption until proven otherwise is that this was a tragic accident, and nothing more. \*\* I don’t think it has anything to do with evil motives, though I think it has everything to do with a complete disregard for human life. We’re not talking about running a person over with the tracks of the bulldozer, we’re talking about crushing them with the front blade and then backing up without lifting the blade up. Lifting the blade up by as little as a foot may have been the difference of this person being dead or just injured. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/68 "2003-03-18T15:35:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > \*\*No, I am certainly not suggesting that this killing was ordered and yes the Israeli driver also may well of been aware of her nationality (earlier she climbed into the cab to persuade the driver not to demolish the house). it certainly wasn’t done for any strategic advantage. But I do know a few internationals in Palestine and they have been threatened numerous times, with guns and grenades by the IDF with very little provacation. \*\* They’ve not only been threatened, but some have been shot, shot at and beaten. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/69 "2003-03-18T15:47:07Z")
**Brutus** , [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=170654). ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/70 "2003-03-18T16:11:59Z")
I’ve never really understood the whole house-bulldozing strategy. An Israeli spokesman said it’s supposed to deter terrorist attacks. How the hell does that work? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/71 "2003-03-18T16:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > The International Solidarity Movement consists of activists who deliberately put themselves in the middle of the conflict in the hope that this will provide some protection and/or publicity for the plight of the Palestinians. It is the same strategy that led civil rights workers to go to Mississippi in 1964, Witnesses For Peace to Nicaragua in the 80’s, and “human shields” to Iraq today. It is a form of pacifist direct action with a lot of honorable tradition and precedents behind it Anytime someone so young dies is a tragedy, yet her death is not a triumph for human rights. Her death is meaningless, and the passion and idealism that she could have employed to make postive contributions to the the world are gone forever. You don’t win a battle by dying for a cause, but by living for one. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/72 "2003-03-18T16:15:44Z")
I for one, resent the idea that if a driver sees someone go in front of their bulldozer they should assume that they’ll just get out of the way. Therefore the driver isn’t culpable because **they were just following orders**. Furthermore we have eyewitness accounts which claim that **the driver could clearly see her**. That narrow window stuff is flat out bull. Also as someone who knew her, that Darwin Award crap is extremely disrespectful to the sanctity of human life. You should really think twice about human life and death and understand that people in the news aren’t just for your entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/73 "2003-03-18T16:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*Furthermore we have eyewitness accounts which claim that **the driver could clearly see her**. That narrow window stuff is flat out bull. > > \*\* How would “eyewitnesses” know what the driver could or could not see? I have assisted at coroner’s inquests in the past. One case I did, a very upsetting one, involved a man who assumed that the driver of a cement truck could see him - or at least, that was the conclusion the coroner came to. He couldn’t. In that case, the driver drove over the poor man - and then, alerted by the yells and screams of witnesses, backed over him again. Just like the instant case, actually. The poor driver (who was as you can imagine very upset about this) escaped a finding of the coroner which _may_ have led to charges of criminal negligence, dispite several witnesses who (reluctantly) testified that they thought the driver could clearly see the fellow. One thing I learned at that inquest was that you can never be sure of what the driver of heavy equipment can, or cannot, see - especially directly in front or behind. Unless of course you are a driver of such equipment yourself, and familiar with the blind spots. The coroner’s jury recommendations in that case were that cement trucks should be equiped with (a) more visibility features, such as perescopes and mirrors, to cover blind spots; and (b) more warning features, such as signs and lights, to alert people to the existence of blind spots immediately in front and for some distance behind. They also recommended more safety training for both drivers and workers who work in close proximity to such machines. Now, I don’t know whether the driver in this case could see her or not, never having been behind the wheel of such a vehicle. The only person who could answer that question is the driver; the only people who would have a clue, would be people who have driven similar equipment. Certainly not bystanders. I note that a couple of people with experience on these types of machines have stated that visibility is poor. I would tend to listen to them, not to bystanders who have no knowledge of the workings of this sort of heavy equipment. But please, don’t let these observations get in the way of a nice head of indignation. If you prefer to believe that this is an obvious case of murder, I am sure noting I could say will change your mind. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/74 "2003-03-18T16:41:49Z")
{{{{ **errata** }}}} I find it disgusting that people seem to find amusement in this. Did you find it amusing when the four US churchwomen were murdered in El Salvador in 1981? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/75 "2003-03-18T16:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*I just have to say that I knew that young woman and I wish she had been a little more concerned about her own life. She had a lot to offer. I think she knew she was taking a risk, but I believe the other protestors who felt the driver was willing to drive over her. It was truly an awful thing. One of many awful things that are about to happen in the next few days to people I will never meet due to a war I cannot stop. > > I frankly am not moved by the people who are shocked by her burning an american flag. I have seen those on other message boards who have said she deserved it. If I had time I would start a pit thread about it. > > Right now I’m off to get a drink. \*\* I believe that I am the only one to mention the flag-burning here, though I could be wrong. I am neither: (a) shocked by it; or (b) of the opinion that she deserved death (or indeed any punishment or harm at all) because of it. So you may stop beating up those particular straw men. I merely stated that this was not an activity that I associate with a “peace activist”, perhaps because I naively assume that the term means those who work, or agitate, for peace. And teaching kids to burn flags is contrary to the ideals I associate with working for peace. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/76 "2003-03-18T17:19:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malthus \* > How would “eyewitnesses” know what the driver could or could not see? I can believe that there were blind spots and can even accept that at the moment she was crushed he did not know exactly where she was. However, blind spots do not extend indefinitely, and I find it incredibly hard to believe that the driver had no clue she was _ever_ in front of him. When when someone passes out of your view whilst driving heavy equipment it is not safe to assume that they have safely gotten out of the way, \* especially when said person is trying to block your forward progress\*. Yes, she was creating a very dangerous situation for herself, I wish she had been more careful. But to completely exonerate the driver and blame it all on her is ridiculous. He was not an automaton, he was aware the protestors were taking chances, and he could have shown more caution. re: flag burning I had just come from some other boards were some trolls were posting some awful stuff (“I have seen those on other message boards who have said she deserved it.”). These boards were more focused on the activist community and I felt a little respect should have been shown since a lot of the people there knew her. I wasn’t addressing anyone in particular here with that, just filling people in on what was happening with this discussion in the electronic community and stating my opinion about it. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/77 "2003-03-18T17:52:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*{{{{ **errata** }}}} > > I find it disgusting that people seem to find amusement in this. Did you find it amusing when the four US churchwomen were murdered in El Salvador in 1981? \*\* No. Although I wasn’t too old at the time and not aware of political events. Did they also become a subject of ridicule? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/78 "2003-03-18T17:52:59Z")
If it was policy to knowingly play chicken in a bulldozer with a human, then the IDF are completely at fault. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/79 "2003-03-18T18:46:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **MC Master of Ceremonies** asked: > So catsix, someone who put’s their life in danger for a cause they believe in desevrves to die? Deserves to? I don’t recall using those words. I certainly don’t think that someone who deliberately puts their **life in danger** should be surprised if the result of that is death. I skydive. I knowingly put my life in danger every time I jump out of a plane. Do I deserve to die for that? I wouldn’t say so, but if I did, I don’t think anyone should sit around saying it was a surprise. It’s because I assume the risk of a dangerous activity that I also accept the responsibility to face the consequences if something goes wrong. Is the same onus on someone who stands in front of a hundred ton piece of heavy earth moving equipment? > [@](#): > > **errata** said: > Furthermore we have eyewitness accounts which claim that the driver could clearly see her. That narrow window stuff is flat out bull. Have you ever worked in or around heavy equipment? I have. I’ve been on dozers, and I know how impossible it is to see a person on the ground who is directly in front of even a small bulldozer without an enclosed cab. No way can an eyewitness on the ground figure that just because they can see the bulldozer, the operator can see _them_. It doesn’t work that way, and it’s the entire reason that when working on and around that equipment, it’s the responsibility of _the people who are on the ground_ to always keep the machinery under observation and be able to get out of the way of danger. > [@](#): > > Also as someone who knew her, that Darwin Award crap is extremely disrespectful to the sanctity of human life. You should really think twice about human life and death and understand that people in the news aren’t just for your entertainment. I don’t think death is entertainment, but I do think that her death was something _she_ could have easily avoided had she made a more informed decision about standing in front of heavy equipment. Whether you knew her or not, Rachel Corrie’s actions directly contributed to her death due either to foolhardy arrogance about her ability to stand head to head with a bulldozer or ignorance about how much time she’d have to get out of the way when it became apparent the dozer was not going to stop. She messed up, and it’s a tragedy that she died because of it, but she is not just an innocent victim. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/80 "2003-03-18T20:00:32Z")
> [@](#): > > It doesn’t work that way, and it’s the entire reason that when working on and around that equipment, it’s the responsibility of _the people who are on the ground_ to always keep the machinery under observation and be able to get out of the way of danger. That may very well be the case when people have jobs to do around heavy equipment and they _are actively trying to avoid them_. However when people are having a direct confrontation and with the operator and the operator cannot ascertain where they are, _the operator should stop trying to use the equipment_. Try to convince me it was sensible to keep bulldozing when he didn’t know where she was. Is that what you would have done? I’m not screaming murder here, but I find it hard to believe this could have been anything better than willful negligence. > [@](#): > > I don’t think death is entertainment, but I do think that her death was something _she_ could have easily avoided had she made a more informed decision about standing in front of heavy equipment. It’s obvious to all she was taking a great risk. I bet even she knew she might lose her life that day. She gambled on the driver’s humanity and common sense and she lost. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999.md?page=5)