# Rachel Corey in Gaza: it takes an American death..... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 17, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999 "2003-03-17T14:59:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/141 "2003-03-19T23:44:35Z")
If you bothered to read my posts Splanky I did not say she was murdered I said looking at the evidence it was probably an accident where the driver displayed gross neglicence, but murder cannot be ruled out as that is what the witnesses say it was. Which raging Liberal sites did I post? I can’t remember. Again the fact that a house is built without permit does not have any bearing under international law, especially as it’s extremely difficult for a Palestinian to obtain one. BUT you are infact still wrong to say that the houses Israel demolishes ar built without permits this is only true around East Jerusalem where the chances of getting a permit to build is nil, most of them are legally built and pre-date 1967. > [@](#): > > The Palestinians should be grateful they’re allowed to live there at all that is an extremely vile thing to say, along with the fact that you seem to assume all Palestinains are terrorists (as I said before the reason why this neighbourhood was earmarked for destruction was to allow a line of sight to the Egyptian border to prevent smuggling). Also quite often the first warning an occupant has that his house is going to be demolished is a loudspeaker from a bulldozer, this has lead to the deaths of several people, especially the old. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/142 "2003-03-19T23:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*Deth, not Derth- for the second time. Next time, I’ll mention it to the Mods, OK? > > Again- even your cites & links don’t have anything which shows that the UN AS AN ORGANIZATION, has declared these specific actions to be illegal. Like your own cites show- some officials “are concerned” about “possible violations”, which is way different from the UN making a ruling that Isreal is breaking the law. Don’t go giving us one Official expressing “concerns over possible violations” and blowing that up into the UN as a whole declaring Isreal is a criminal nation. Sure, it does show some potential problems, but we all know the UN is pretty darn anti-Isreal. > > And, indeed you certainly can. Like I said, right here in the good old US of A, the guvmint can take your house away if you are a drug dealer, even if the rest of your family is innocent. > > Of course, one way to make sure your family is not made homeless by IDF bulldozers is to not be a freaken PLO terrorist in the first place, but then it’d be too much to ask dudes to take some personal responsibility. Heck, it’s not THEIR fault they are terrorists, right? :rolleyes: > > And that’s the whole issue here. I don’t deny the IDF could have been more careful, but let’s see the demonstrators take some smidgen of responsibility for the very stupid idea of “playing chicken” with bulldozers, OK? :rolleyes: \*\* Look Drdeth, you yourself stated earlier that house demolition was immoral yet here you are now trying to justify it. I will post ore tommorow, but now I am very tired and 'm off to bed. But agin learn ore about the subject, rather than displaying your ignorance of it, the PLO have not lauched a terrorist attack for a no. of years. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/143 "2003-03-19T23:58:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > \*\*Which raging Liberal sites did I post? I can’t remember. > > \*\* “Arabicnews” “Reliefweb” are just two. The Releefwebs source is “the Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment”. Maybe “rabidly pro-palistinian and anti-zionist” might be a better term than “raging liberal”. “Unbiased” is NOT a term I’d use, however. Note that “biased” does not automatically mean 'wrong"; it just means (as I said) “take it with a grain of salt” or “consider the source”. I’ll point out right here in the USA they can tear down your house if you built it without the proper permits. All they need is “due process”. Again, I do admit it appears that in at least some cases the IDF hasn’t been all that great about “dotting the i’s & crossing the t’s” in following due process. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/144 "2003-03-19T23:59:24Z")
> [@](#): > > But, of course, those Americans were killed by Palestinian terrorists, so it seems they don’t count. There’s a major difference here, and I hope you can see it. What an agent of a government does is a reflection on the government he works for. Bulldozing peoples houses and running over people who try to stop you is a questionable action, to say the least. And when that government is endorsed by OUR government, it calls our position into question. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/145 "2003-03-20T00:02:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > \*\*Look Drdeth, you yourself stated earlier that house demolition was immoral yet here you are now trying to justify it. > But agin learn ore about the subject, rather than displaying your ignorance of it, the PLO have not lauched a terrorist attack for a no. of years. \*\* Umm, no. I said “legal” as opposed to "moral’. I made no claims as to their morality one way or the other. So- that big “boom” which killed all those innocent civilians just last week was just a bad batch of fireworks? :rolleyes: Ok, that’s it- if you’re going to claim that the PLO doesn’t set off bombs, there is no use. Sorry, that’s so ridiculous, I won’t even bother. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/146 "2003-03-20T00:04:59Z")
But Blalron, many of those terrorists are “agents” of the PLO. Thus, their actions should reflect upon the “governement” of the “Palestinians”. ---
**Author:** ![Splanky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@Splanky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Splanky)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/147 "2003-03-20T00:08:49Z")
> [@](#): > > that is an extremely vile thing to say, along with the fact that you seem to assume all Palestinains are terrorists I don’t remember ever claiming that all Palestinians are terrorists. Houses being demolished are affiliated with terrorists and/or are illegal. I don’t know if you’ve been told this, but Israel doesn’t demolish houses without a motive. On the other hand, [the Palestinian Authority does](http://www.jewishpost.com/jp0610/jpn0610p.htm). It is also untrue that Palestinians can’t get permits in Jerusalem- actually, the truth is quite the opposite. (Link above) > [@](#): > > Despite the notorious heavy hand of the Israeli bureaucracy - which vexes Jewish residents too in securing building licenses - Arabs have received substantial numbers of permits. In the 1974-1995 period, for example, Jerusalem’s Arab community received building permits for more square meters of residential construction than did the demographically similar (in terms of total numbers and family size) Jewish ultra-Orthodox community. Likewise, in 1998, 79% of Arab permit requests were granted as opposed to just 73% of Jewish requests. In 1996, the Municipality of Jerusalem carried out a total of six home demolitions in the eastern half of the city (where most Arabs live) and an equal number in the western (mostly Jewish) half. In 1997, there were seventeen in the east and 14 in the west. In 1998, there were 12 in the east and 13 in the west. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/148 "2003-03-20T00:33:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*It sounds like you believe the Israeli military account which is your prerogative. > I however believe the protestors account which states that she was already in front of the house well ahead of the bulldozer. There was no running or leaping involved. \*\* OK … I’m going to type this very slowly. Plus I’m going to use boldface. Maybe **this** time, it’ll get through: **It doesn’t matter how far ahead of the bulldozer she was standing!! It doesn’t matter what she was wearing or what she was carrying. It’s a bulldozer!! Not a station wagon!! Not an SUV!! A BULLDOZER!!** You won’t see a bulldozer cruising down the street through a school zone doing 35 MPH. You won’t see a bulldozer parallell parking on a side street in Milwaukee. You won’t see a bulldozer pulling a float in the Macy’s Day Parade. Do you know why? Because it’s a **dangerous piece of equipment!!!** You can’t apply ordinary traffic rules to a bulldozer. You can’t apply rules of the road or right of way to a bulldozer. You can’t apply ordinary fields of vision to a bulldozer. This is not a vehicle for carrying your puppy to the vet. It’s a vehicle for moving hundreds of pounds of earth and smashing through things. This is the reason they put all that tape around construction sites. This is the reason they put signs saying “No Trespassing” and “Authorized Personell Only” and “This Means You” around construction sites. This is the reason you don’t walk into construction sites (or destruction sites, as the case may be) unless you know what you’re doing and are willing to take a little responsibility for your actions. And speaking of responsibility, I’m reading your posts here, and it seems as if you want to hang the weight of the world around the Israelis’ necks, while at the same time _a priori_ absolve Rachel of blame. This is a blatant double standard. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/149 "2003-03-20T02:19:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > \*\*But they mention specific violations of Israel, including house demolitions. \*\* Perhaps they do. Such violations seem to be predicated on the assumption that Israel is an occupying power, which it arguably is not. And I find it revealing that no violations are mentioned commited by the Palestinians. Why is that, do you think? As I said, both sides are supposed to do something. Neither does. (You can argue until you run out of breath who failed first. Lots of people do.) But only one side gets condemned for not living up to the bargain. Check the resolution. The PA is supposed to stop terrorist acts. They don’t. Israel is supposed to stop the “occupation”. They don’t. The PA says they can’t or won’t stop the terror until Israel does what it is supposed to. Israel says they can’t or won’t stop the occupation until the PA shows that it will do what it is supposed to. And we get - well, exactly what we get in the Middle East, which rejoices in 5,000 years of “he hit me back first”. And people encourage each other to throw themselves in front of bulldozers, and then act surprised when they get run over. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Nietzsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8dc957/32.png) [@Nietzsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nietzsche)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/150 "2003-03-20T06:25:06Z")
Your last post was excellent, **tclouie**. I’m with you all the way. I don’t why this particular incident bothered me as much as it did. It’s only a small example of the atrocities commited daily by that illegitimate state. As much as I admire this young lady for showing such courage and resolve, I have to say I find myself in rare agreement with **gobear**. Someone as passionate and driven as that could do much more to further her cause alive than dead. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/151 "2003-03-20T07:03:25Z")
What business is it of Israel’s if the houses were built without permits or not? It is **NOT THEIR LAND**. Do you see me rushing to Albania with a pickaxe to tear down a bus shelter that offends UK planning permission? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/152 "2003-03-20T14:41:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Cermonies \* > you yourself stated earlier that house demolition was immoral yet here you are now trying to justify it. I seriously doubt anyone here is all that excited to hear about peoples home being bulldozed wholesale no matter what nation or religion they might claim. It sucks, legal or not. That will never make it a bright idea to play chicken with a 50 ton piece of construction equipment. I’m sure the parents will be along shortly to sue Caterpillar for negligence. After all they knew about that pesky low visibility problem for years. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Falesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Falesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falesh)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/153 "2003-03-20T18:12:20Z")
I don’t agree with condemning her or lessening her death simply because her actions were dangerous. If people should not do things that are dangerous while in pursuit of their values then many great protests would never have happened. A lot of terrible things have been changed by peaceful protesters putting themselves in danger. At least she didn’t die attacking people or people’s homes. I wish there were more peaceful protesters on **both** sides of this disgusting situation. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/154 "2003-03-20T18:21:49Z")
Falesh, if the Palestinians actually had a “peace camp” (and by that I mean a group of people willing to criticize their own people) chances are the whole mess would have been solved years ago. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/155 "2003-03-20T19:19:04Z")
**Alessan** > [@](#): > > Falesh, if the Palestinians actually had a “peace camp” (and by that I mean a group of people willing to criticize their own people) chances are the whole mess would have been solved years ago. You know what, someone on another bulletin board used this very same argument today. Unfortunately, they kinda ruined it by pointing out that Palestinians who criticise Hamas et al are in as much danger from them as they were from the IDF previously… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/156 "2003-03-20T20:19:59Z")
Then the Palestinians should look to their own house first. Given the choice between fighting their own extreme elements, and fighting Israel, they should choose the fight they have a chance of winning. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/157 "2003-03-20T21:43:10Z")
Hmmm… what? People in Palestine who really would rather like to just get on with their lives in peace (and they do exist, I believe that the minimum number is 25% of the population, based on numerous polls), when faced with either an AK-47 toting suicide bombing _crazy loon_ should pick a fight _at all_. Doesn’t that kindof fly in the face of “peaceful protest”? ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/158 "2003-03-20T21:45:16Z")
please insert a “?” after “at all”. Ta. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/159 "2003-03-20T21:55:25Z")
Peaceful protest only works when people are allowed to protest peacefully. If the Hamas isn’t allowing its countrymen to speak up, them maybe some _un_peaceful protest is in order. Basically, the only think that can save the Palestinians, at this point, is civil war. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2003, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999/160 "2003-03-20T22:02:25Z")
I could not possibly disagree more strongly. Civil war would merely make everyone look over there and say “Tsk, told you so, ‘they’ are an inherently violent people.” The only thing that can save the Palestinians is for the idiots on both sides to get a clue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rachel-corey-in-gaza-it-takes-an-american-death/161999.md?page=9)