# Racial Consistency **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2002, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602 "2002-06-06T03:45:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/1 "2002-06-06T03:45:41Z")
Why are events that either are, or perceived to be all white, racist and bad, but events that are all minority OK? For example, there are lots of complaints about the Emmys, but everybody’s OK with the Essence Awards. Shouldn’t we be consistent and either condemn both all white and all minority events, or be tolerant of both, instead of condemning one and accepting the other ? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/2 "2002-06-06T04:19:34Z")
There are a lot of “white” groups that give awards for their particular ethnic niche. _Essence_ magazine has simply spent more money to pubicize their efforts. [http://www.pahaol.com/main.htm](http://www.pahaol.com/main.htm) > **[RTDNA - Radio Television Digital News Association](https://www.rtdna.org/)** > > Visibility, advocacy, training, resources, networking and awards for electronic journalists. [http://www.pirandello.com/n-imig2001.html](http://www.pirandello.com/n-imig2001.html) [http://www.edmundsullivan.com/awards.htm](http://www.edmundsullivan.com/awards.htm) [http://www.heidmar.com/news01/may.27.2001.shtml](http://www.heidmar.com/news01/may.27.2001.shtml) etc. Blacks are simply one more ethnic group in this country and they are doing nothing different (although, perhaps with more _élan_) than any other ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/3 "2002-06-06T04:21:49Z")
Actually, I hope they are seeking pub_ **l** _icity rather than any thing else my post might have suggested. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/4 "2002-06-06T04:23:31Z")
Perhaps the following story will be illustrative. Majority Racial Group: “Hey, minorities, if it’s all the same to you, we’re going to deliberately exclude you from all of these events for about the next 50 or 60 years.” Minorities: “Fine, well, we’ll just go hold our own damned events.” (Flash forward 50 years) Majority: “Hey, we’ve decided to let y’all play with us now!” Minority: “Wow, thanks!” Outside Observer: “Doesn’t that mean the minority groups should cease holding their own exclusionary [Ed. note: Hahahahahahaha!] events? Aren’t those racist?” Minority: “Well, for one thing, we’ve now got 50 years of entrenched establishment, along with the jobs and income that come from holding and promoting these events. For another, just because you decided to finally let us in doesn’t just call it even. Y’all kept us out for years, and now that we have some tradition built up we’re supposed to dump it just because you don’t like it? Nuh-uh.” Reasonable people: :rolleyes: “Was this really all that difficult to figure out? Are there people who really don’t understand that the reason that there is a Black Miss America is that, for 40-50 years, Miss America really meant White Miss America? And that there are a lot of people tied in to the whole Black Miss America thing now who, for reasons of pride, finance and/or tradition, don’t intend to let it go?” ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/5 "2002-06-06T05:15:14Z")
tomndebb I think that maybe you misunderstood my point. I wasn’t targeting blacks. My point is, it seems OK to hold all minority or women’s events but not all white or all male. All I’m saying is, where’s the consistency. If all white/male is wrong, then all minority/women is wrong. If minority/women’s events are OK, then white/male events are OK. ---
**Author:** ![Nobody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/94ad74/32.png) [@Nobody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nobody)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/6 "2002-06-06T05:26:31Z")
pldennison good point about building up a tradition, then not being able to let go. All I can say is, on the one hand, while I completely understand starting a minority group, because of exclusion from a white group, on the other hand, doesn’t belonging to an all minority group, while blasting all white groups, sound a little hypocritical ? ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/7 "2002-06-06T05:56:13Z")
**Joel** , you’re making the assumption that the need for these things has passed and now we live in a happy egalitarian society. Discrimination is not the same when it’s done by those in power than by those who are oppressed. ---
**Author:** ![acconav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f4b2a3/32.png) [@acconav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/acconav)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/8 "2002-06-06T06:05:51Z")
when i was younger, any time father’s day or mother’s day came around i would ask, “why isn’t there a kid’s day?” my parents always responded, “everyday is kid’s day!” my point is that heterosexual white males don’t need their own day or their own celebrations because in our society, everyday is Hetero White Male day. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/9 "2002-06-06T11:50:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by acconav \*my point is that heterosexual white males don’t need their own day or their own celebrations because in our society, everyday is Hetero White Male day. \*\* That’s what they say, anyhow. At national meetings of the American Public Health Assn., there are official groups for women, gays, etc. They are fully approved by the organization. If anyone ever started a white-only or men-only group, they would be tossed out on their ear. In other words, it’s remarkably, uh, black and white: – Organize a Black group, you’re a forward-looking hero – Organize a White group, you’re unacceptible racist scum. IMHO for the organization to support either sort of group is divisive and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/10 "2002-06-06T12:11:22Z")
I think these divisions will phase out over time. As minorities become more integrated and mainstream and prejudice and discrimination decrease, so will the need for them to have separate events. In terms of separate cultural events to showcase ethnic culture and history (eg a Korean street festival, or a Brazilian dancing contest) I would expect and hope these to continue, but not to exclude non-ethnics. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/11 "2002-06-06T13:06:43Z")
> [@](#): > > All I can say is, on the one hand, while I completely understand starting a minority group, because of exclusion from a white group, on the other hand, doesn’t belonging to an all minority group, while blasting all white groups, sound a little hypocritical ? Who’s blasting “all white groups”? How is the Essence Awards blasting anyone? When you have a family reunion, are you blasting other families? When you go to a St. Patrick’s Day Parade, are you blasting other ethnic groups? When you to a GBLT event, are you blasting heterosexuals? The answer is no. The “blasting” may be perceived, but it is not real. > [@](#): > > In other words, it’s remarkably, uh, black and white: > > – Organize a Black group, you’re a forward-looking hero > – Organize a White group, you’re unacceptible racist scum. > > IMHO for the organization to support either sort of group is divisive and wrong. What in the world?! Just a month ago you were complaining about blacks not organizing around the “right” stuff. How are blacks supposed to organize around the “right” stuff if they don’t have organizations? Please elaborate, **december**. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/12 "2002-06-06T13:37:43Z")
Happy to elaborate. I fully endorse Blacks organizing self-help groups. I can recall my father and his friends participating in the Workmen’s Circle, an effective self-help group. I think it’s wrong for the APHA to organize groups based on ethnic or sexual identity. Any groups they organize should be built around the delivery of public health, which is their mission. So, they might have groups of physicians, administrators, epidemiologists, etc. ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/13 "2002-06-06T13:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Joel \* > \*\*tomndebb I think that maybe you misunderstood my point. I wasn’t targeting blacks. > My point is, it seems OK to hold all minority or women’s events but not all white or all male. All I’m saying is, where’s the consistency. If all white/male is wrong, then all minority/women is wrong. If minority/women’s events are OK, then white/male events are OK. \*\* I don’t think that **tomndebb** missed your point at all. Do you have an objection to the New York Italian-American Chamber of Commerce holding an annual banquet and honoring the Italian-American Business(wo)man of the Year? Do you think that the Ancient Order of Hibernians is wrong to organize a St. Patrick’s Day Parade? Do you think the Knights of Columbus should be disbanded? **tomndebb’s** point is a very simple one - Ethnic (and religious) groups of all sorts, white and black, have their own celebrations and awards. And "white guys’ is not an ethnic or religious group. Sua ---
**Author:** ![Strange\_Biller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@Strange\_Biller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strange_Biller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/14 "2002-06-06T13:41:52Z")
Chula touched on the best point - it’s different because the whites have had all the power and they still have much more of the power. If you don’t think discrimination, sexism and hatred still exist, you are living in a dream world. Try living in Tennessee or Kentucky for a while and see how “far” race relations have come. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/15 "2002-06-06T14:16:54Z")
> [@](#): > > If anyone ever started a white-only or men-only group, they would be tossed out on their ear. I tjink you’re blowing smoke, here. It is probably true that they would not support a “white” group. After all, what would it represent? “White” is an ill-defined category of everyone who is not a visible minority. There are no “white” issues in health. Aside from myopic institutional racism, I cannot think of any health problem that affects “whites,” only issues that may affect some smaller segment of the white population. On the other hand, if a group wanted to establish a Men Group, I suspect that, as long as they addressed Prostate Cancer, Smoking, Rowdy Drunken Behavior, Penile Disfunction, and other health issues associated with _men_, they would be allowed to form. Do you have evidence that such a men’s group was denied permission to organize? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/16 "2002-06-06T14:27:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \*On the other hand, if a group wanted to establish a Men Group, I suspect that, as long as they addressed Prostate Cancer, Smoking, Rowdy Drunken Behavior, Penile Disfunction, and other health issues associated with _men_, they would be allowed to form. There is no issue associated with male _health deliverers_ only. Penis disfunction can be dealt with by female health professionals. > [@](#): > > Do you have evidence that such a men’s group was denied permission to organize? No. But, you know as well as I do that such a group would be out of the question, as would an all hertero-sexual group or an all Caucasion group. **tomndebb** , you’ve been hanging around **Minty** and **Sua** so long, you’re learning their devilish lawyer tricks. You are getting to be truly dangerous. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/17 "2002-06-06T15:11:10Z")
OK, I made the incorrect assumption that the APHA focus groups were patient oriented, not provider-oriented. Now, I can think of issues that would pertain to the problems women or homosexuals or ethnic minorities face when acting as health-care providers, so I can still see some use for such focus groups. Aside from an assumption on the part of the female patient of a male doctor that he could not provide adequate service or the assumptions of a non-white patient that a white doctor could not provide adequate service, I cannot think of any _obstacles_ to whites or men providing health care. So what would be the point of such a group? If you can define a problem for providers that is specific to whites or men, then they should be allowed to organize a focus group. It is always possible that PC directors or directors fearful of PC condemnation _might_ interfere with organizing such groups. However, claiming that “we know” that they would never be allowed is silly. I suspect that it is much more likely that the groups “whites” or “men” within the APHA have not felt any need to organize along those lines (big surprise) or that any group that would include only whites or only men that would perceive a need would actually comprise some smaller sub-set of “whites” or “men” and they have already formed their particular group. Oh look! There is no White Caucus or Men’s Caucus in Congress. Gee, I wonder why that is? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/18 "2002-06-06T15:26:50Z")
> [@](#): > > You are getting to be truly dangerous. > [@](#): > > Said Gimli, “But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.” > > “Dangerous!” cried Gandalf. “And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your fashion.” Fortunately, I always use my powers for good. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/19 "2002-06-06T15:32:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* I cannot think of any _obstacles_ to whites or men providing health care. So what would be the point of such a group? If we were the racist, sexist homophobes that some claim we are, then there _would_ be a point. > [@](#): > > However, claiming that “we know” that they would never be allowed is silly. Give me a break. It’s silly to claim that they would never permit a group that excluded African Americans? That comment earns a :rolleyes: BTW there is one other conceivable reason for organizing a gay subgroup at a convention, and it isn’t related to health research. Should the APHA convention also have a swingers group? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2002, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/20 "2002-06-06T16:36:31Z")
> [@](#): > > If we were the racist, sexist homophobes that some claim we are, then there would be a point. And since we are not, there is not. Thank you. > [@](#): > > It’s silly to claim that they would never permit a group that excluded African Americans? That comment earns a ::rolleyes:: And are whites _forbidden_ to join the black groups? You cannot even conceive of a reason to have a white group, but you _know_ that it would be forbidden? You can have your smiley back. You are building a straw man the size of the Goodyear blimp. If your implication regarding swinging is that some APHA group is promoting it at some level, then the APHA is obviously allowing groups to organize for reasons beyond providing health care–sort of like a club. That (if true) simply makes the APHA look silly. Name a similar activity in which only whites or only straight men can participate. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602.md?page=2)