# Racial Consistency **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2002, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602 "2002-06-06T03:45:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/41 "2002-06-08T03:50:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \*Are tournament bridge players and “everyone else” raised in different cultures from birth? No. Tournament bridge players are raised in a wide variety of cultures. > [@](#): > > Do their parents speak to them differently? Yes, at least once they become obsessed with bridge. > [@](#): > > Do they identify with the same special foods and types of music because these items are associated with cultural traditions and customs? Food and music are of little interest to them. > [@](#): > > Can you look at a tournament bridge player and tell that that’s what he is? No. That is a good point. > [@](#): > > Most importantly, have tournament bridge players been historically isolated from “everyone else” such they would develop their own subculture? Definitely yes, but it’s their choice. Basically, they have little interest in socializing with people who don’t share their passion for the game of bridge. > [@](#): > > I hate it when you act obtuse on purpose. Fair enough. I do that sometimes. OTOH I just got home from Englewood where I had dinner with my cousin and his Black MD wife. She and my wife are very similar and very close. Despite all the differences that you correctly point out, everyone in our family considers those two women to be like two peas in a pod, and I think my cousin’s sister and brother would also agree. > [@](#): > > I would argue that while the cultural differences between whites and blacks are shrinking, they definitely still exist. Makes sense to me. > [@](#): > > Black people have never been and never will be white people with brown skin. Yes, I understand that this is your point. However, I’m not sure that I agree. > [@](#): > > Why, **december**? What’s wrong with me being different from you? Why must we all melt together in other to tolerate and appreciate each other? Yes, you can be anything you like and so can I, regardless of our skin color. I know that we have at least two important things in common: a mathematical/engineering type profession and an interest in sharing opinions on this message board. > [@](#): > > You say you want to get rid of the differences, but do you know what this means? It means you’ll have to pick up your Chinese food from McDonalds because all ethnic restaurants would be deemed “divisive”. It means going to street fairs and finding the same rinky-dinky stuff, all of it “diverse” but none of it very authentic or good. It means everyone dressing the same, talking the same, and doing the same thing. It means everyone conforming to what everyone thinks is “normal”. And you know what? We’d still be a hateful, intolerant society because no matter how hard we tried, we’d still all be different. From my POV, type of food and how one dresses just aren’t that important in what makes a human being tick. It’s true that I like bagels, but that’s not an important aspect of my identity. > [@](#): > > No one has to change themselves by acting “white”, acting “straight”, acting “Christian”, or acting “male” just to be accepted. Seems like a fairly simple concept to me. That’s very interesting to me, because I have chosen to “act Christian.” That is, I don’t hide my religion, but I do try to behave no differently from others at the office. In an ideal world, I wouldn’t need to do this. It’s also possible that I didn’t need to do it, and could have achieved the same success without conforming. I often wonder. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/42 "2002-06-08T05:23:50Z")
> [@](#): > > From my POV, type of food and how one dresses just aren’t that important in what makes a human being tick. It’s true that I like bagels, but that’s not an important aspect of my identity. No, but if someone told you you couldn’t get your bagels from your favorite kosher bakery because it caters to a specific demographic rather than to “everyone”, you’d be pissed, right? > [@](#): > > OTOH I just got home from Englewood where I had dinner with my cousin and his Black MD wife. She and my wife are very similar and very close. Despite all the differences that you correctly point out, everyone in our family considers those two women to be like two peas in a pod, and I think my cousin’s sister and brother would also agree. Being similar in some ways does not preclude them from being different in others. Acknowledging differences does not mean bonds can’t form between people. Your cousin’s wife (by the way, does she know that you trumpet her around all the time?) may be very close to your wife, but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have special things in common with someone like me or another black person that go beyond simple personality quirks. If she doesn’t, fine. But if she does, does this make her a bad person? I participate on a message board where most of the posters are black professionals. We talk about things that we would never talk about here, in a style that we would never use here. It’s truly like sitting around at the dining room table during Thanksgiving, when you can loosen your belt a few notches and relax a spell while you digest information. There are a few white participants–mostly people in the jazz scene or folks married to black people–but the rest of us are just _us_. Now you might think it’s not fair for us to have our “own” message board, citing unfairness or diviseness or whatever. But when I participate on boards like this one, I have to constantly remind everyone that I’m black (and female). I’m always fighting uphill battles against racism and ignorance and plain-out stupidity, whilst still trying to eek out some entertainment like everyone else. It’s tiring. Sometimes you just want to be _you_ and not some alien defending the honor of your “kind” all the time. And I find refuge by going to “black” message boards. When I first started participating here, no one assumed that I was a black female. Everyone automatically assumed that I was a white guy. Why should I have to be a white guy just to fit in here? You would probably say I don’t have to be, and my triple-digit post count is proof of that. But I’m willing to wager your typical white guy feels a lot more comfortable here than your typical black guy. (Hell, a lot of times I’ve vowed never to come back to this place after reading through some threads). And yet the SDMB is no more divisive than the other board I frequent. They just cater to different audiences. That’s the best thing about the internet–and the US. There’s something here for everyone, and in every dose and combination you can tolerate and imagine. Diversity…it’s a good thing! ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/43 "2002-06-08T06:09:28Z")
Oh yes. I forgot. > [@](#): > > ## Black people have never been and never will be white people with brown skin. > > Yes, I understand that this is your point. However, I’m not sure that I agree. White people are fine, but I don’t want to be one, inside or out. And I don’t want to live in a place where everyone eventually turns “white”. With all the different flavors and colors that make up this society, it seems like something besides “white” should result from all this mixing, right? And yet you only see white, not even gray or tan. Just white. Blah. I hope I’m long dead before all this “mixing-up” occurs. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/44 "2002-06-08T13:40:35Z")
I have no objection to any of your positions, **monstro**. Just a couple of points. \<\\> No. Interesting point. \<\\> Of course not. \<\\> Good point. One might make a similar statement about the typical outspoken conservative guy. I, too, consider toning down what I write or even quitting. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/45 "2002-06-08T14:00:31Z")
> [@](#): > > White people are fine, but I don’t want to be one, inside or out. And I don’t want to live in a place where everyone eventually turns “white”. It’s not that I take issue with your feelings here, but I suspect that you would be furious if a white male said this about blacks. I could be wrong (and hope I am), but I think it says something important. And I also think you’re underselling the differences _among_ white people, I might just be dense. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/46 "2002-06-08T14:55:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I suspect that you would be furious if a white male said this about blacks. No, I would not. No one wants to be “forced” to be something they are not. Saying that blacks will become whites with brown skin removes MY identity and replaces it with YOURS, as if there’s something wrong with my identity. Wouldn’t you find this a little arrogant and distasteful? The idea that **december** thinks the end result of societal homogenization is “white” is not pleasant to me. Why should everyone be “white”? I understand that right now white folk enjoy a sizable majority in this country, but this isn’t going to last. And yet, everyone’s still expected to turn white in the end (and not the other way around). It just doesn’t seem right to me. Perhaps **december** thinks by saying that black people will one day become white people with brown skin, he’s saying they’ll be just like everyone else, virtually indistinguishable in terms of cultural tastes and activities. Why does he think this is a good thing, though? How does me liking collard greens and corn bread and him liking lox and bagels drive a wedge between us? Does he wish the same type of “whiting out” for Jews living in this great Christian land? How about other ethnic groups? Will Mexicans become white people too? I guess we’ll have to say good-bye to all those wonderful Mexican restaurants and eat egg salad sandwiches all day long. Boring, nasty egg salad. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/47 "2002-06-08T15:10:37Z")
OK, that’s cool–I don’t want to start a fight. Just looking for some understanding, that’s all. I still think you’re underselling the differences among “white” people, though. Who I am has less to do with the fact that I am “white” than with the facts that I am an Army brat, my parents are divorced, the socioeconomic conditions under which I grew up, the cultural/religious differences between my parents, etc. The color of my skin, and any cultural attachments to that, are a very tiny part of who I am. Those cultural attachments, too . . . I come from Irish roots like Tom, but you wouldn’t catch me watching step dancing, nohow, no way. My father is Jewish, but the only way you’ll catch him eating lox is forcibly. Why would further cultural homogeneity – not complete assimilation or wiping out of culture, just further homogeneity – mean getting rid of Mexican restaurants? I dig Mexican food, and what’s more, my lack of melanin does not confer an inability to cook it myself. I’m just getting the idea that your conception of what “white” means is partly based in stereotypes as deep as december’s conception of what “black” or “Jewish” means. And that you think the things that you think are connected with “white”-ness are bad things, to boot. Please tell me that isn’t what you mean. > [@](#): > > Saying that blacks will become whites with brown skin removes MY identity and replaces it with YOURS But you don’t know **what** my indentity is. In fact, you’re equally guilty of assuming that _I_ am a white person. I am, but you would have assumed I was even if I wasn’t, because you have a preconception that “SDMB=white.” But what does being white tell you about my identity, other than my skin color and a few blindlingly obvious things? Nada. Not a thing. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/48 "2002-06-08T16:44:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I still think you’re underselling the differences among “white” people, Yes, I can see why you would think this. But really I’m not. I’m aware that white people are not a homogenous lump. However, I recognize that there is a distinct line between black culture and mainstream (white) culture. What I’m against is this idea that black culture has to diffuse into mainstream culture for us all to be truly unified. Diffusion results in dilution, weakening, and all things that have special meaning loses form and importance. You can see this happening with artifacts taken from Native American cultures. Folks pick and choose which artifacts they find appealing for the fireplace mantle and then throw the rest of it away. That’s what happens when cultural property becomes annexed. It becomes disposible. For instance, black churches have been the anchor of the black community since Heck was a pup. They are unique institutions, much different from most of the mainstream churches in this country. Wouldn’t the “whiting of black America” make black churches extinct? I would say yes and the idea frightens me because black churches are wonderful places. Not to say that mainstream churches aren’t, but they are different. Just like Twinkies and Peeps are both good but different. Would you want to give up one in favor of the other? No, you would want to keep both around, just to add “flavor” to the world. > [@](#): > > Those cultural attachments, too . . . I come from Irish roots like Tom, but you wouldn’t catch me watching step dancing, nohow, no way. My father is Jewish, but the only way you’ll catch him eating lox is forcibly. Right, but there are others who do partake in step dancing and lox-eating, do they not? They find fulfillment in such activities because they foster cultural pride. Their identity may be developed around such things, such that they would happily tell you they have Irish or Jewish heritage. Because they don’t find such cultural attachments useless or foreign, they help perpetuate their existence, facilitating the boundaries around Irish or Jewish-American culture so that others like them may enjoy them in their authentic and unique form. They are “white”–yes–but only because of the color of their skin. They aren’t white inside and out. > [@](#): > > Why would further cultural homogeneity – not complete assimilation or wiping out of culture, just further homogeneity – mean getting rid of Mexican restaurants? Whiteness to me means annexing everything into “mainstream” society, so that a African-American street festival becomes simply a “street festival” or that Chinatown becomes Anytown. No one refers to themselves as an Irish American or a black American, just “American”. There are no differences along ethnic or racial lines…everyone is the “same”. There wouldn’t be Mexican restaurants because Mexican culture would be annexed into mainstream society. Such establishments would just be called “restaurants”. featuring a little bit from this column and a little bit from this column, all of it called “American”. Yeah, it’s an extreme view and argurably wrong, but that’s the way whiteness is defined in this society. If you identify solely with mainstream culture, you’re considered white or white-like. I don’t think everything must be absorbed and repackaged for “everyone’s” enjoyment. I believe the special and the unique should be left alone if it’s not hurting anyone. ] > [@](#): > > I’m just getting the idea that your conception of what “white” means is partly based in stereotypes as deep as december’s conception of what “black” or “Jewish” means. My conception of “white” is brought to me through the mass media. It’s not based on stereotypes, rather I define it based on where my and other ethnic groups’ cultural attachments don’t penetrate. When folks say, “I have no culture”, they are considered “white” to me. Not because they really don’t have a culture, but because they are so enveloped in it that they don’t know where it begins and ends. They are rarely shown its edges. When you belong to a subculture, you _do_ see the edges all the time, and it makes you appreciate them more. It feels good being able to wear clothing or speak a certain way that indicates you are a member of a group separate from “everyone else”. Perhaps I cling to this feeling too much, but this is hardly something perculiar to me. > [@](#): > > But you don’t know what my indentity is. In fact, you’re equally guilty of assuming that I am a white person. I am, but you would have assumed I was even if I wasn’t, because you have a preconception that “SDMB=white.” But what does being white tell you about my identity, other than my skin color and a few blindlingly obvious things? Nada. Not a thing. My use of “you” in that post was generic, not personal. Sorry. You’re right that your being white (if you are white) tells you nothing about your identity. But I haven’t said anything about white identity other than I don’t want it for myself. Why not? Because I like my own just fine. I like juggling my blackness with my mainstreamness, and I don’t see why I have to give up one or the other. Black folks have been in this country for more than three hundred years, much longer than most ethnic groups that have come to this country. It seems to me if black people weren’t completely absorbed into mainstream culture throughout that long duration, they’ll never be. And there is nothing wrong with this, so why should people take offense? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/49 "2002-06-08T18:20:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Perhaps december thinks by saying that black people will one day become white people with brown skin, he’s saying they’ll be just like everyone else, virtually indistinguishable in terms of cultural tastes and activities. I didn’t make this comment. > [@](#): > > based in stereotypes as deep as december’s conception of what “black” or “Jewish” means. This is the exact opposite of what I have often said on this Board. I appreciate these efforts to “clarify” my POV, but I would rather speak for myself. One further clarification. **monstro** has talked about white culture. She may or may not mean the same as “western culture.” I do think highly of western culture and values. I have far less interest in the skin color and religon of those who contributed to it. I wouldn’t use the term “white culture.” When I talk about western culture, I mean such things as mathematics, literature, science, human rights, law, accounting, finance, architecture, art, music, philosophy, etc. I do put a high value on these. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602/50 "2002-06-08T18:34:06Z")
I agree with **Monstro’s** definition of “whiteness”. In this country at least, to be white really means to be non-ethnic. But when faced with this concept, one must then ask oneself what does it mean to be non-ethnic? > [@](#): > > When folks say, “I have no culture”, they are considered “white” to me. Not because they really don’t have a culture, but because they are so enveloped in it that they don’t know where it begins and ends. They are rarely shown its edges. When you belong to a subculture, you do see the edges all the time, and it makes you appreciate them more. I wholeheartedly agree with this. Being white is not the same thing as being black, Latino, or Asian and it’s because “white” is a construct that has come to mean mainstream and normal; this makes it the most political label we have among the racial classifications. If you doubt what I’m saying, define the phrase “ethnic”. Or go one step further and define the word “exotic-looking”. Neither word conjures up images of the stereotypical white guy from the cornfields of Iowa, does it? What they do conjure up are images of “otherness”. People with swarthy complexions and foreign mannerisms. People who are NOT mainstream. Throughout history, different groups of people have been transformed from “other” to white, thereby becoming absorbed under the umbrella of mainstream and normal. That was the case for both the Italians and Irish. One could also argue that Asians (and some Latino nationalities) are becoming white, too. But black folks still remain in that “other” slot. That’s why it is so easy for Americans to say white and black ppl are in opposite races. That’s why black and white couples still cause more attention than, say, white and Latino couples. Many white people seem rather offended when black people visibly celebrate their culture, but don’t even take notice when other white people do the same. I think many times they forget that African Americans and other members of the African diaspora share a culture that is no less unique and special than the Irish or Italian cultures. So it really is not about how much melanin is in your skin and how kinky your hair is. It goes beyond the superficialities inherent to a race label. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-consistency/112602.md?page=2)