# Racial dynamics in Nu Doctor Who **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 19, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284 "2015-01-19T14:51:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/21 "2015-01-19T19:35:56Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > But an 11 year old, well, these might be new concepts for him or her. And repetition might help a bit. The Who-watching age range goes a fair bit younger than 11 too, at least in the UK. It must be a hell of a difficult show to write for, to pitch it just right. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/22 "2015-01-19T20:03:01Z")
Let’s not be forgetting the guy who got blowjobs from a paving slab… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/23 "2015-01-19T20:43:20Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Let’s not be forgetting the guy who got blowjobs from a paving slab… We were _trying_ to until you forced us all to remember it, dammit. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/24 "2015-01-19T21:04:09Z")
Kids are not all that dense. The best way to normalize something is to just treat it normally. Banging a drum over it is less effective. BTW, not sure if you can count Martha in the dynamic … the Doctor is a bit more different than “a White guy” and you need to count Rose and Amy there then too. (Amy also tried to jump his bones, remember.) So the dynamic is mostly White woman with Black male. Zero of White male being attracted to Black female or well anyone being attracted to a Black female character. Lizard female, sure. Not sure if the stereotype of a Black man with a White woman is as widely held in the U.K. as it is in the U.S. but the lack is glaring to me. Any Black female Who fans here care to comment how that reads to them? I do think they are trying (not just casting blind to race) and failing badly. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/25 "2015-01-19T21:11:26Z")
One thing that I didn’t understand was when the Doctor kept calling Danny Pink the PE teach, despite the latter saying over and over that he is a math teacher. Maybe it’s a class think in the UK, that Pink would “only” be the PE teacher because soldiers are so stupid. When I watched it, as an American, I was thinking, “that’s horribly racist.” ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/26 "2015-01-19T21:15:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Zero of White male being attracted to Black female or well anyone being attracted to a Black female character. Martha and her boyfriend Tom Milligan (OK, not a major plot point or anything, but non-zero). Wm Shakespeare was also rather taken with Martha, if I’m remembering rightly. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/27 "2015-01-19T21:17:57Z")
Happy to be corrected. I don’t remember him at all. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/28 "2015-01-19T21:18:24Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > When I watched it, as an American, I was thinking, “that’s horribly racist.” Best not to view a British show through the lens of American racial mores. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/29 "2015-01-19T21:29:45Z")
> [@armedmonkey](#): > > …But kids are a little different. You may have to metaphorically hit them over the head with concepts. I’m 41 year’s old. I know stuff. Stuff like the fact that there is nothing wrong with interracial or homosexual dating/marriage. If you hit me over the head with that I’m just going to groan and ask you to get on with the plot. But an 11 year old, well, these might be new concepts for him or her. And repetition might help a bit. And of course what those kids are learning, based on the relationships seen in the show, is that “romances between black people and white people just don’t work out.” I would feel comfortable betting that the _Doctor Who_ showrunners did NOT consciously set out to teach that lesson. I’m sure that (as mentioned previously here) the showrunners are congratulating themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness. I’d guess that they are quite proud of all that “colorblind casting.” They may be quite unaware of the biases and assumptions about interracial relationships that keep showing up in their plots. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/30 "2015-01-19T21:55:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Zero of White male being attracted to Black female or well anyone being attracted to a Black female character. I just want to go on record that, as a white male, I would date the hell out of Martha Jones. I use the word “date” because it’s a family program. But you’re right, which is part of what I was trying to get at. There may be an intentional decision to try to break racial boundaries, but as I said in the last line of my OP, it kind of fails. It tries so hard to push the concept of interracial sexual relations, but it never really follows through. Mickey might as well be K-9, Donna’s husband only makes a brief appearance as a sycophant for a giant spider, and Danny Pink might as well be the “sacrificial black guy” in a by the numbers horror movie for how well he’s written. Soldier struggling with a past that sacrifices himself nobly. I think I’ve seen that before. The show likes the _idea_ of a black guy, but all it can do is pair the idea up with a white woman and either neuter it or kill it off. And Martha, gorgeous fucking Martha, get’s nothing. eta: ninja’d a bit by **Sherred**. Well, maybe not “ninja’d”, but I think we are on the same page, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/31 "2015-01-19T22:07:36Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > And of course what those kids are learning, based on the relationships seen in the show, is that “romances between black people and white people just don’t work out.” Or, it doesn’t matter about skin colour, really. People are complicated and have complicated relationships. Donna ends up happy with Shaun, after all. I do despise the way RTD finished Donna’s story though, but not for that reason. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/32 "2015-01-19T22:44:06Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Or, it doesn’t matter about skin colour, really. People are complicated and have complicated relationships. Donna ends up happy with Shaun, after all. All I remember is the wedding (at which Ten was ‘saying goodbye,’ though not to Donna herself). Was there further information to the effect that they ended up happy? At any rate: yes, people are complicated. People are also prone to finding patterns, though. And when a particular show racks up a certain number of ‘this didn’t work out’ plot developments, then you can’t blame people for _noticing_. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/33 "2015-01-19T22:55:48Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Was there further information to the effect that they ended up happy? Maybe it _was_ an unhappy relationship. Who knows, it’s not on screen. The wedding seemed happy enough. Perhaps you can filter it through your biases and let us all know. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/34 "2015-01-19T23:13:54Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Perhaps you can filter it through your biases and let us all know. Easy there, tiger. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/35 "2015-01-19T23:18:26Z")
If there is a pattern it is that relationships don’t often end up happy … The Doctor and River did not exactly end up happily ever after either. Amy and Rory and to some degree Clara and Danny (in love to the end … and beyond) are exceptions. And maybe alternate universe Ten and Rose? The last we know of Donna was a happy wedding day. Maybe there’s another spider in the wings but we were left with her smiling. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/36 "2015-01-19T23:34:43Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I’m sure that (as mentioned previously here) the showrunners are congratulating themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness. I’d guess that they are quite proud of all that “colorblind casting.” IOW, they’re trying too hard. They are trying so hard to be diverse that the only same-ethnicity, M/F couple is Gwen and Rhys. Before Ianto got all gay over Jack his girlfriend was a black Cyberwoman. ---
**Author:** ![scoots](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@scoots](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scoots)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2015, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/37 "2015-01-19T23:37:27Z")
I’m not too sure about the lizard woman’s regular tongue flicking followed by the knowing smiles from her partner. I mean, it doesn’t bother me personally, but is lesbian cunnilingus not a bit racy for a kids show? ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/38 "2015-01-20T00:33:37Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > I suspect that in the UK they look at race differently than they do in the US. Black and White relationships don’t have the same baggage they do here. > > I know that the UK had a mixed race relationship – without race being an issue – as far back as 1992 with **Prime Suspect 2** (and it may have been done before that); they US had to wait five years for **Ally McBeal** – and it’s still fairly rare in the US. **Red Dwarf** 1988 (Lister and Kochanski)? - unless you think that doesn’t count because it’s unrequited. Before about the '80s you run into the ‘Midsummer Murders’ problem - barely any black characters in the first place, and not fleshed-out enough to be given _any_ relationship. Anyway, I agree that most of the posters in this thread are seeing this through an American lens that probably doesn’t capture how the creators were thinking of it at all. If anything, I suspect targeted tokenism is more on the money. As in “We need a black character somewhere in this season. Where the hell are we going to put them? Oh, I know. The love interest. Done and dusted.” Or alternatively “Well, we definitely need a black character, but we don’t need TWO black characters!” I don’t think this concept of having interracial relationships as a special category of racism is really a thing in the UK. In fact, I don’t know how much of a thing it is anywhere outside the US. Plenty of racists, but they’re more likely to be racist all the way - no associating with them furriners _at all_. Relative infrequency of white/black relationships is more about this generalised racism - people who are less likely to even associate with other races, not people who think associating is fine but you definitely don’t _date_ them Statistics seem to back me up. Stats on relationships from [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States) seem to suggest that about 8% of black americans are married to non-black people. Meanwhile according to [this article](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10943807/Love-across-the-divide-interracial-relationships-growing-in-Britain.html) about 20% to 25% of British African people are in a relationship outside their ethnicity. And given that a lot of (most of?) that community are fairly recent immigrants, I suspect that the percentage of cross-ethnic relationships started _in Britain itself_ is much higher. A lot of people who migrate are already married to someone from their own country. And of course, if the Nu Who producers are trying to replicate the racial mix of Britain itself and disregard racism entirely, then most of their non-white characters _ought_ to be in relationships with white characters. If you have 90% white, 10% non-white, then 90% of the non-white people will probably be married outside their race - unless you have race-based selectivity going on. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/39 "2015-01-20T00:38:25Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > It’s kind of always trying too hard. They mention the gay couple being married about 10 billion times instead of assuming we get the gist. I’m talking about that lizard lady and her wife. It’s getting tiring being told “we’re married” every 5 minutes they are on screen. That wasn’t the first mention of a lesbian marriage - there was one back at least as far as “Midnight”, although it was largely just a passing reference to why one woman was traveling alone. There was also a reference to a homosexual relationship in “The Empty Child/Doctor Dances”, but at least they kept on track with the portrayed time period in that it was considered shameful enough to be used for blackmail. I can’t recall anything of that sort offhand in the OldWho, although there was that bit in the Tomb of the Cyberman when Jamie and The Second Doctor were holding hands… but excused it by saying each of them thought they were holding Victoria’s hand. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2015, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284/40 "2015-01-20T00:43:22Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Before Ianto got all gay over Jack his girlfriend was a black Cyberwoman. Be fair - Ianto’s ex was a black woman long before she was ever a Cyberman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-dynamics-in-nu-doctor-who/710284.md?page=3)