# Racial equality: Which country is better the US or the UK? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2002, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671 "2002-11-25T14:58:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![rogue4007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@rogue4007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogue4007)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/41 "2002-11-27T13:37:26Z")
well i never walked up and called them coloured, just how are you supposed to decsribe them? thats the biggest problem, to much emphasis on mere words. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/42 "2002-11-27T13:42:33Z")
“Coloured” is bad, “coloureds” is worse. Using their actual ethnicity might be a good idea. “Non-white” at a push, though even this strikes me as a bit iffy. ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/43 "2002-11-27T16:42:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rogue4007 \* > \*\*well i never walked up and called them coloured, just how are you supposed to decsribe them? thats the biggest problem, to much emphasis on mere words. \*\* I’ve posted to these boards before to say pretty much the same thing myself - too much emphasis on vocabulary in place of improvements in sentiment/attitude. However, it seems no more than a common courtesy to use the words that people themselves use when you’re trying to describe them. So here are a few links to relevant websites. You’ll see that words like “black”, “African-Caribbean”, “Asian” or something more specific are generally used. “Coloured” makes you sound like a retired army officer of the 1950s talking down your nose about uppity colonials in a blimpish letter to The Times. [Black Britain](http://www.blackbritain.co.uk/) [Black and Asian History Map](http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/B/blackhistorymap/) - Channel 4 article [Black Search](http://www.blacksearch.co.uk/) - community and directory site [Asian Network](http://www.bbc.co.uk/asiannetwork/) - BBC page [British Born Chinese site](http://www.britishbornchinese.org.uk/) By the way, as you can see, you don’t need to press Submit Reply twice when you’re posting a quote here - just keep typing beneath the “quote” tag. Press the Quote button again to see what it looks like. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/44 "2002-11-27T17:30:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Blacks moving out occurs more frequently when an inner city area is gentrified and most of the original inhabitants can no longer afford to live there. Black flight and white flight are spurned by two different motives. Black flight is usually the result of involuntary displacement (as you said, gentrification). White flight is usually the result fear. Fear of crime. Fear of lowering property values. White flight is always voluntary and is driven by racism. Unfortunately, it results in self-fulfilling prophesies because what happens is that massive flight from any community will drive property values down, inviting ne’er-do-wells into the community, causing crime rates to skyrocket, causing property values to plummet further. But people are blind since they will use this fact to justify–rather than condemn–white flight. [There’s a myth that the south is more segregated than the north, but this isn’t the case.](http://www.tenant.net/Tengroup/Metcounc/Nov01/NYsegregated.html) I’ve never been to the UK, but I have been to other places in Europe. In Amsterdam, I was the object of stares (which–although unsettling–wasn’t a big deal). Two stores that I had approached mysteriously “closed”, only to “reopen” after I had passed. This had never happened to me in the States before. I don’t know if the UK is more egalitarian than the US when it comes to race, but if it is, I bet it would have less to do with how wonderfully liberal the place is and more to do with the horrible history of the US when it comes to race. It would be like if we were to compare the level of overt anti-semitism in Germany to that of the US. There are lower levels in the US only because Germany’s historical treatment of Jews is so horrible. That doesn’t make the US special or completely immune to anti-semitism, however. > [@](#): > > They foster the notion that evil white men will stop at nothing to keep the black man down, and openly call those who disagree with them racists (if white), or self-loathing Uncle Toms (if black). Jesse Jackson, in particular, is reknowned for blackmailing companies with charges of racism unless they donate money to his charity. I can’t let this slip without asking for a cite, dude. > [@](#): > > I watch American tv shows, and no offence intended, but a lot of the shows are ‘voluntary segrigated’ why is this, you know for example say dawsons creek compared to sister sister. Do americans think this has been happening recently? Because these shows mirror–to some extent–what happens in the real world. It may shock people, but it is quite possible for black people to have more black people than white people in their families and social circles. The same goes for white people. When a sitcom is focused on a family or a social circle (e.g, _The Cosby Show_, _Roseanne_, _Friends_, _Martin_), you tend to have racial homogeniety. When a sitcom is based on a working environment (e.g., _ER_, _Law & Order_, _Boston Public_) you tend to have a more diverse cast. Having predominately all-white or all-black shows does not bother me (except when they become unrealistically homogenous). It’s bothersome only when your choices are limited to all-white or all-black shows. > [@](#): > > Em, do americans think that there alot of shows representing a proportion of mixed raced couples? I can’t think of any show that features a mixed-race couple, but then again I don’t have any cool premium channels on my TV. But lately I’ve been seeing mixed-raced couples on the big screen. > [@](#): > > well i never walked up and called them coloured, just how are you supposed to decsribe them? thats the biggest problem, to much emphasis on mere words. No, the problem is feeling like you can call anyone anything without offense being taken. And if “coloureds” is the only thing you can come up with, you’re in the market for a good thesarus. ---
**Author:** ![rogue4007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@rogue4007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogue4007)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/45 "2002-11-27T21:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\*Black flight and white flight are spurned by two different motives. Black flight is usually the result of involuntary displacement (as you said, gentrification). White flight is usually the result fear. Fear of crime. Fear of lowering property values. White flight is always voluntary and is driven by racism. Unfortunately, it results in self-fulfilling prophesies because what happens is that massive flight from any community will drive property values down, inviting ne’er-do-wells into the community, causing crime rates to skyrocket, causing property values to plummet further. But people are blind since they will use this fact to justify–rather than condemn–white flight. > > [There’s a myth that the south is more segregated than the north, but this isn’t the case.](http://www.tenant.net/Tengroup/Metcounc/Nov01/NYsegregated.html) > > I’ve never been to the UK, but I have been to other places in Europe. In Amsterdam, I was the object of stares (which–although unsettling–wasn’t a big deal). Two stores that I had approached mysteriously “closed”, only to “reopen” after I had passed. This had never happened to me in the States before. > > I don’t know if the UK is more egalitarian than the US when it comes to race, but if it is, I bet it would have less to do with how wonderfully liberal the place is and more to do with the horrible history of the US when it comes to race. It would be like if we were to compare the level of overt anti-semitism in Germany to that of the US. There are lower levels in the US only because Germany’s historical treatment of Jews is so horrible. That doesn’t make the US special or completely immune to anti-semitism, however. > > I can’t let this slip without asking for a cite, dude. > > Because these shows mirror–to some extent–what happens in the real world. It may shock people, but it is quite possible for black people to have more black people than white people in their families and social circles. The same goes for white people. When a sitcom is focused on a family or a social circle (e.g, _The Cosby Show_, _Roseanne_, _Friends_, _Martin_), you tend to have racial homogeniety. When a sitcom is based on a working environment (e.g., _ER_, _Law & Order_, _Boston Public_) you tend to have a more diverse cast. > > Having predominately all-white or all-black shows does not bother me (except when they become unrealistically homogenous). It’s bothersome only when your choices are limited to all-white or all-black shows. > > I can’t think of any show that features a mixed-race couple, but then again I don’t have any cool premium channels on my TV. But lately I’ve been seeing mixed-raced couples on the big screen. > > No, the problem is feeling like you can call anyone anything without offense being taken. And if “coloureds” is the only thing you can come up with, you’re in the market for a good thesarus. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![rogue4007](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@rogue4007](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rogue4007)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/46 "2002-11-27T21:51:17Z")
if being called coloured is the biggest problem they have then they have no problems. im white, if im called white it dosnt bother me, its the colour i am. i dont see coloured as a problem, some people should get a life ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2002, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/47 "2002-11-27T22:55:50Z")
But following that logic, if “white” is the “colour” you are, then you’re “coloured” too. Why is it so difficult for you to understand the simple courtesy of referring to people as they would prefer? It’s really not your place to tell people to get a life if you’re too lazy to avoid language that they find insulting. While you’re at it, you might want to learn the basics of grammar and punctuation if you don’t want to create a bad impression of yourself here; and you still haven’t got the hang of that “quote” function. It’s evident that you’re a newcomer, but I’m afraid you haven’t made a very good start. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/48 "2002-11-28T10:05:41Z")
My sister has this (admittedly hackneyed) poem on her wall. Might help you to get your head round the concept, **rogue4007** : > [@](#): > > When I was born I was black, > When I grew up I was black, > When I’m sick I’m black, > When I go in the sun I’m black, > When I’m cold I’m black, > When I die I’ll be black. > But you… > When you’re born you’re pink, > When you grow up you’re white, > When you’re sick, you’re green, > When you go in the sun you turn red, > When you’re cold you turn blue, > And when you die you turn purple. > And you have the nerve to call _me_ colored! ---
**Author:** ![Taboo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f0a364/32.png) [@Taboo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taboo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/49 "2002-11-28T19:13:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sparrow \* > \*\*I think that depends very much on where you are in the UK. The non-white population is very largely concentrated in the cities. In smaller towns and rural areas you will very rarely see a non-white person and unfortunately, because of the rarity, the population are unaccustomed to them and may react in a racist way, though this is often simply through lack of thought or imagination. > > On the other hand in the inner cities, where the populationmay be evenly mixed, I’d say the races get along pretty well. I live in a borough in London where the “native” i.e. white English, population is in fact now a minority. I’m not aware of a great deal of racism, either against non-whites or against the minority whites. \*\* Its like do i get benefits if im a 8th of a american indian or do i have to be atleast % like most beneficiaries… ---
**Author:** ![Taboo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f0a364/32.png) [@Taboo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taboo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2002, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/50 "2002-11-28T19:15:10Z")
ignore previous post…lol grabbed wrong quote: heres is the right one to my reply… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*Don’t know if it’s of any interest, but I just thought something, about to the “black identity” question. I think that the most closest question which appears to be quite often an issue for some people here is along the line “Am I a westerner/french or an arab/algerian or a westernized arab or an algerian french or a french muslim or what?”, with sometimes a feeling of not belonging to anywhere, especially for second generation immigrants, who feel they are rejected “here”, but have essentially nothing in common with “there”, either. \*\* Its like do i get benefits if im a 8th of a american indian or do i have to be atleast % like most beneficiaries… ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/51 "2002-11-29T18:37:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monstro \* > \*\*Black flight and white flight are spurned by two different motives. Black flight is usually the result of involuntary displacement (as you said, gentrification). White flight is usually the result fear. Fear of crime. Fear of lowering property values. White flight is always voluntary and is driven by racism. Unfortunately, it results in self-fulfilling prophesies because what happens is that massive flight from any community will drive property values down, inviting ne’er-do-wells into the community, causing crime rates to skyrocket, causing property values to plummet further. But people are blind since they will use this fact to justify–rather than condemn–white flight. \*\* Cites? What data have you to claim that “black flight” is “usually” driven by gentrification? Are generalizations the new standard in GD? Since personal observation and broadbrushed characterizations are your standards, let me offer this: Are you familiar with the phenomenon of black flight as a function of fear of urban crime and lowered property values? My observation is that black flight is often–not always–driven by the same phenomena as white flight. You can argue cause and effect all day long, but a rational player must safeguard her/his investment(s). Person A deciding to move because s/he fears that the infusion of a population historically associated with the lowering of property values and increased crime is not racism. It is rational decision-making. Again, we can argue cause and effect, but to remain and allow one’s investment’s to depreciate (and this is the historic pattern) is imprudent. > [@](#): > > I’ve never been to the UK, but I have been to other places in Europe. In Amsterdam, I was the object of stares (which–although unsettling–wasn’t a big deal). Two stores that I had approached mysteriously “closed”, only to “reopen” after I had passed. This had never happened to me in the States before. huh??? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2002, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671/52 "2002-11-30T17:57:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Are you familiar with the phenomenon of black flight as a function of fear of urban crime and lowered property values? My observation is that black flight is often–not always–driven by the same phenomena as white flight. It sounds like you’re confusing “middle-class” flight with “white” flight. Although they may overlap one another significantly and both have similar long-term consequences, they are not the same. I’m talking about families leaving a community as soon as a few black families moves into it. This is something black people simply do not do (for the obvious reasons). [And this happens more often than people are willing to admit.](http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/prime/1121-128.html) Your observation is just as valid as mine. However, I think there is a difference between fleeing a neighborhood because property values are dropping and fleeing a neighborhood because you FEAR property values are dropping just because your neighbors look different than you. Middle class folks of any hue will tend to share the former view. My parents moved out of their intown neighborhood because they wanted to spend their retirement in the quiet suburbs. But only racist people will equate changing racial demographics with lowering values. There is a stigma attached to predominately black neighborhoods. They could be working-class, middle-class, upper-middle class–it doesn’t matter–ignorant people will label them as “bad” neighborhoods. The “hood”. Even good-hearted white people make these aspersions sometimes without meaning to. It’s racism, clear and simple. And it’s the driving force behind white flight. Black = bad. White = good. > [@](#): > > huh??? Explain what you’re confused about and maybe I can help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racial-equality-which-country-is-better-the-us-or-the-uk/138671.md?page=2)