Racial Profiling Of Arabs.

[onerebelgent]

Like it or not profiling will ALWAYS exist, legally or otherwise.

Why?

Because it works.

Scenario:

You have recieved a viable threat concerning the untimely destruction of a major infrastructure.
You have to decide (due to a limited budget) where to best focus your search in order to prevent this tragedy.

Your choices:

white, female, teenage, single parent, that can barely pay attention much less afford plastik on the black market.

black, male, middle-aged, businessman, well dressed, seen kissing his wife and 3 lovely children goodbye at the airport, before getting in line for the train.

Asian, elderly, female, visablly distraught at her intimidating surroundings, looks confused, face pleading for some assitance from a kind passer-by that would help her make it to her plane in time to see her grandchilds birthday party in Kansas.

Middle eastern, male, mid-twenties, casually dressed, arrogant attitude, pays cash or uses someone elses credit card to buy expensive plane ticket, as does his 3 friends in line with him. passport information relates these gentleman are from a country that just yesterday issued a fatwah that demands each citizen kill 1 american each, whether it’s a man, woman, or infant.

What do you think?

I dunno, there have been tons of cases in the past 100 years to warrant detaining all four of the suspects! Especially those single white mothers!

Yeah, their blowing themselves up all over town these days, huh.

[TwistofFate]

Is basing any action or precognition on race or skin color always bad?

I don’t like it, but I acknowledge that it is human nature for it to happen.

But when human nature becomes official policy, thats the problem.

And I have answered all your questions now as honestly as I could.
Onerebelgent: why have you set your controls of your sections to deliberately make the Middle Eastern “suspects” look Guilty?

[More_Cowbell]

*Originally posted by TwistofFate *
Its very simple. Every person passes through a metal detector and gets scanned by a hand scanner. It will add time onto the boarding time, but its a small price to pay for a safe flight. All baggage gets scanned also.

Oh yes, that is very simple. America’s 15th busiest airport (Seattle) handles a bit over 74,000 passengers per day. Let’s say the wand holders get really good and it only takes 10 extra seconds per passenger (which is ridiculous if you’ve ever been pulled aside since you have to take off your shoes, but we’ll over look that for the moment). That is 740,000 extra seconds, on average, per day. Your plan would add an extra 8 1/2 DAYS to boarding time. Care to try again? BTW, Atlanta has almost three times as many passengers per year.

When was the last time there were Pro America rallies in any of the “Ally” countries? Hell, there are anti-capitalist rallies and anti-war rallies across the globe where America gets the brunt of the anger in almost every country, specially in Western countries.

Well, here in America when the Klan rallies or the Aryan Nation rallies, there is almost always counter rallies. Rallies against hate. I didn’t ask about capitalism or war rallies. Where are the anit-hate rallies in the Middle Eastern countries?

Yes. I dont believe in Absolutes.

Bullshit. Date rape, child molestation, animal torture, genocide and serial snipers. Please tell me the non-absolutes for these kinds of actions. Justify them, tell me the other side of the story.

Yes, there is alot of hate towards America in these countries. But I dont think that makes assuming people from the region (regardless of what limiters you place on the selection) are terrorists justafiable.

And I don’t think ignoring historical data in the name of political correctness is justafiable either.

yes they did, but I still do not believe that the actions of the few justify the profiling of them all.

Then come up with a better way.

You expected me to answer a sarcastic question? Yes, he fell into the categories you supplied, but you only know this AFTER the fact. You want to use these groupings to judge people in the future, regardless of their innocence, based on how they look.

Innocent people get their bags searched every day at the airport. They aren’t presumed guilty when this happens, it’s simply a security procedure.

I cannot support a policy that makes assertions about character or intent based on appearance.

You can.

In this particular instance, yes I can.

Is basing any action or precognition on race or skin color always bad?

I don’t like it, but I acknowledge that it is human nature for it to happen.

But when human nature becomes official policy, thats the problem.

So you are stongly against such things as affirmative action, college admission policies based on race and such organazations as the United Negro College Fund?

[TwistofFate]

8.5 days? ease up there, pal. You are adding a total time for all combined flights onto the boarding time.

How about you only add the delay onto 1 flight?

Lets take one of the largest Commercial planes available, the Airbus a330-200, with a seating capacity of 258

The A330-200 offers long range capability of up to 6,400 nm/11,850 km and typical seating capacity for 253 passengers in three classes.

http://www.pyramid.ch/aircr_A330.htm

I’ll even be generous and increase the search time to 15 seconds.

258*15 \ 60 seconds = 64.5 minutes.

Considering that you are supposed to check in 2 hours before your flight, do you think that would be enough time to go a reasonable search of all passengers?

Put the staff on Security and this is achieveable.

Bullshit. Date rape, child molestation, animal torture, genocide and serial snipers. Please tell me the non-absolutes for these kinds of actions. Justify them, tell me the other side of the story.

You tell me which is the worst out of the list, and I can find someone who thinks differently. there is no range on suffering, there is no range on joy. There are no Absolutes.

affirmative action, college admission policies based on race and such organazations as the United Negro College Fund?

Affirmative action and college admition policies are there to address historical imbalances and promote learning and achievement amongst sections of the community where college attendance is low. AFAIK, The UNCF is there to help people from a a section of the community who might not be able to afford to go to college better themselves. If there were other schemes for other ethnic groups, and I’m sure there are, I would support them also.

Well, here in America when the Klan rallies or the Aryan Nation rallies, there is almost always counter rallies. Rallies against hate. I didn’t ask about capitalism or war rallies. Where are the anit-hate rallies in the Middle Eastern countries?

Look. I have never said that the Middle east is some bastion of love for America. There is alot of Anger towards America, some of it justified, a hell of a lot of it not. But I do not see the actions of some citizens as justification for labelling them all.

and befoe you say you aren’t labelling them all, here is an excperpt form your last post

quote:

yes they did, but I still do not believe that the actions of the few justify the profiling of them all.

---

Then come up with a better way.

So are you labelling them all as terrorists?

[More_Cowbell]

*Originally posted by TwistofFate *
**8.5 days? ease up there, pal. You are adding a total time for all combined flights onto the boarding time.

How about you only add the delay onto 1 flight?

Because they aren’t checked plane by plane, they are checked before the reach the terminal in mass. Are you suggesting that each gate have their own metal detectors and x-ray machines?Terminal 1 @ O’Hare alone has over 50 gates. For the busier airports, you are still talking over 100,000 people per day (that is 400 planes @ 250 per plane). And that extra time, no matter how you break it up, still has to be paid for. You are still talking about staffing enough people and equipment to make up for that extra 10-15 seconds per person.

And baggage searches with wand waiving take much more time than that. Have you ever been pulled off to the side? I have, numerous times. We are talking minutes here, not seconds. Nothing more fun than having to take the shoes you’ve warn all day off and have someone examine them. Thank goodness for my odor eaters!

You tell me which is the worst out of the list, and I can find someone who thinks differently. there is no range on suffering, there is no range on joy. There are no Absolutes.

The are ALL absolutely unacceptable. If you associate with people with think that rape and child molestation is acceptable under certain circumstances then there is something wrong with you.

Affirmative action and college admition policies are there to address historical imbalances and promote learning and achievement amongst sections of the community where college attendance is low. AFAIK, The UNCF is there to help people from a a section of the community who might not be able to afford to go to college better themselves. If there were other schemes for other ethnic groups, and I’m sure there are, I would support them also.

So it is ok to base policies on race, but only if you deem it socially acceptable? But you said “But when human nature becomes official policy, thats the problem”. So is it a problem or isn’t it?

But I do not see the actions of some citizens as justification for labelling them all.

Labelling them all what? Who is labelling people? Every single person that walks into an airport and boards a plane is a possible terrorist. However, statistically, those actually committing terrorists acts fall into certain categories.

So are you labelling them all as terrorists?

What the fuck are you talking about? You admitted that most terrorists who have acted against the US fall into certain categories but you don’t want to assess threat on those categories. I said come up with a better way to assess possible threat.

[TwistofFate]

If you associate with people with think that rape and child molestation is acceptable under certain circumstances then there is something wrong with you.

thats a fucking strawman and you know it. I never said any of them were acceptable. I said that some of them may be worse to different people because you cannot put measure to suffering. I never, NEVER said any of them were acceptable.

I said that it is human nature to fear the different. And when it is human nature to ASSUME THE WORST of a person based on their race, religion or sex it is a bad thing. don’t try and twist my arguement.

Look, whatever. Believe what you want. I really couldn’t give a shit trying to convince you of the errors of racial profiling because you have obviously decided it is ok and nothing I try and say will make the slightest bit of difference. No matter how I refute your posts, you will just change the goalposts and continue on as if I am refusiong to answer you. I gave you perfect figures for searching people that you asked for and you have simply changed the question. the plan might not work, but you refuse to acknowledge that I proved you wrong, based on your evidence and just attempt to slight me. by skewing my words.

I have tried hard to answer your questions, but nothing I say will be acceptable to you.

[irishgirl]

ah, you see it’s not just RACIAL.
it’s about age and gender as well.

do you know who the most fundamental muslim of my aquaintance is? the person who defended Osama to me?

she’s 20, the mother of three children, red-haired, blue eyed, born in Belfast to an Irish mother and a Turkish father, holder of a British passport, and the wife of a Saudi business man who works for BP. she looks whiter than i do and speaks with a very strong Belfast accent.

and i guarantee she’d get past any “racial profiling” you set up.

you think the terrorists don’t have mothers who’d die for the cause?
or sisters?
or fathers?
or grandparents?
you could pass most malaysian or indonesian muslims off as japanese tourists.

you could pass most pakistani muslims off as indian hindus or sikhs.

and don’t even start on the croats, albanians and chechens.

even the average middle eastern person could pass as greek, italian, spanish or portugese with the right documentation.

you forget that 9/11 was meticulously planned by very smart people, who’ve had to get a lot smarter.

[More_Cowbell]

*Originally posted by TwistofFate *
**thats a fucking strawman and you know it. I never said any of them were acceptable. I said that some of them may be worse to different people because you cannot put measure to suffering. I never, NEVER said any of them were acceptable.

So there are absolutes.

Look, whatever. Believe what you want. I really couldn’t give a shit trying to convince you of the errors of racial profiling because you have obviously decided it is ok and nothing I try and say will make the slightest bit of difference.

Not all racial profiling is acceptable. I believe I stated that. There are no absolutes, remember. There are policies based on race in place for the greater good. However, one race or another is always going to feel slighted.

I gave you perfect figures for searching people that you asked for and you have simply changed the question. the plan might not work

It wouldn’t.

but you refuse to acknowledge that I proved you wrong

Because you haven’t.
What it comes down to is viewpoints. You see racial profiling as a statement saying that most arabs are terrorists. I see racial profiling as a statement saying that most terrorists are arabs. I can agree to disagree. What I object to most as your attempt to try to paint me as some kind of xenophobic racist because of one stance on one subject when nothing could be further from the truth.

[TwistofFate]

So there are absolutes.

No, there are not. Different acts are worse to different people. thats not to say that they find ANY of them acceptable.

For every nasty act, someone else will find something else nastier. You cannot measure emotion, therefore there are no absolutes of tragedy.

It wouldn’t.

That’s like, your opinion… man.

Because you haven’t.

Yes I have. You gave a set of figures, distorted the results, and I proved you wrong.
We’ll agree to disagree. I tried to paint the policy as racist, which I believe it is. You don’t, end of discussion.

[More_Cowbell]

Rape is an absolute wrong. Child molestation is an absolute wrong. It is never right. It is unquestionably an evil, unacceptable action. We do you keep wanting to compare one to another.

And you gave a set of figures that misrepresented the workings of major airport security. I did not distort any results, I simply choose to look at the big picture, something you obviously have difficulty with, in more ways than one.

[bordelond]

*Originally posted by TwistofFate *
**Onerebelgent: why have you set your controls of your sections to deliberately make the Middle Eastern “suspects” look Guilty? **

Actually, this is important in effective profiling. Onerebelgent unwittingly gives us a more accurate view of what a security agent will be noticing in matching someone to a profile – namely, their specific behaviors.

Just like the FBI’s mass-murderer profile, the likely-terrorist profile in practice encompasses far more than physical appearance or nationality.

[TwistofFate]

Here we go again. I never said any of them were acceptable. I just said that some of the acts are worse TO DIFFERENT people. Look how much indifference there was to the Rwanda genocide, compared to the recent child abuse scandals. While all people should agree that all the crimes you mentioned are totally unacceptable, they will affect people in different ways. There are no absolutes as you cannot put a limit on suffering. I am not saying that any of them are acceptable, just that you cannot measure them accurately as diferent people will have different gauges.
As for the figures, you claimed that it would add 8.5 days onto bording time. I showed you that you were incorrect.