BeerUser, please join me in the Pit.
Yeah, gosh, I wonder why that might be. coughslaverydredscottsharecroppingkkkbloodyshirtplessysegregationpolltaxes
restrictivehousingcodesgreatmigrationghettoizationautomationentrenchedurbanunderclasscough
“If the stronger and cleverer race is free to impose its will upon ‘new-caught, sullen people’ on the other side of the globe, why not in South Carolina and Mississippi?” –The Atlantic Monthly, 1898
Those damn black people–why won’t they stop being poor? :rolleyes:
{added line break. --Gaudere}
[Edited by Gaudere on 12-29-2000 at 03:12 PM]
Not too mention that the phrase “friggin’ niggers” is soooo eloquent! It’s so very suttle.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Let’s not allow ignorance to sidetrack this debate.
Does anyone have any rational reasons for racial profiling? Does anyone have any rational solutions to stop racial profiling?
You are a believer in racism or you wouldn’t express racist opinions.
And putting it off on where you live is cowardly, you don’t even have the courage of your own nasty convictions!
Though, come to think of it, you expressed what’s on your mind and in your heart . . . that’s a pretty rotten neighborhood, all right. I wouldn’t care to live there.
We do not tolerate this kind of abusive talk on this board.
Not only are you incorrect, you are now formally warned. Anything else in this vein will result in you losing your posting privileges, as fast as I can hit the button.
your humble TubaDiva
Administrator
Now, as lee was saying: **Let’s not allow ignorance to sidetrack this debate.
Does anyone have any rational reasons for racial profiling? Does anyone have any rational solutions to stop racial profiling?**
Yes.
Blacks are 7 times more likely than whites to be murdered.
Blacks are 7 times more likely than whites to commit homicide.
About 42% of homicides are black on black.
About 42% of homicides are white on white.
About 6% of homicides are black on white.
About 3% of homicides are white on black.
–US Department of Justice
“yes”? well, not by the stats you presented. The question was “using the basis of 1,000 randomly selected American teen aged males, would you find more ciminals among minorities than whites?.”
You answered with stats about blacks/white (not minority/white), murder specific (not ‘criminal’) and not teens.
The question, unfortunately, tho’ begs the issue. Since the word “criminal” indicates some one with a record. While it is true that minorities are over represented within the prison systems, it is not at all clear all of the reasons why. Police and prosecutors have leeway on prosecutions, and the availability and quality of the defense presented also plays a part.
Not expressing an opinion or recommendation on this thread, but these numbers don’t seem to add up:
Mjollnir wrote
As near as I can tell, this reads that
45% (42+3) of homicides are commited by whites
48% (42+6) of homicides are commited by blacks
45% (42+3) of homicides are commited on blacks
48% (42+6) of homicides are commited on whites
Those numbers don’t sound right to me. And they don’t add up to the “7 times” statistics above.
Cite, please.
The issue of whether blacks are more likely to commit crimes than whites is not an issue here (although that is an interesting issue). Racial profiling is using nothing but hunches (which may or may not be justified by statistics, but nothing else) to justify a stop or arrest. Whether the statistics are accurate or not is really not important when the underlying approach is inappropriate anyway.
Nobody would accept it if the police routinely stopped all Italians because “all Italians are mobsters” even if it is far more likely that an Italian is actually in the Mob than, say, a Korean. We would expect the police to have some specific reason to believe that this particular Italian is somehow involved in Mob activities. Why should it be any different for race?
So my numbers won’t quite jive with it. Anyway, this is for Bill H. and any others who might disagree with the figures I mentioned without bothering to check the DOJ website:
Why is it taken for granted that MALES commit more crimes than FEMALES, but it is wrong to say that BLACKS commit more crimes than WHITES? Face it- poor folks commit far more serious crimes than well-off or middle-income folks. More blacks are poor. Thus, more crimes are commited (as a %) by black folks.
However, police stops for bogus things like the lite on the license plate being out, are wrong. The person should be pulled over for a clear safety violation, or old tags or something solid. Then, if the person seems OK, letthem go with a warning, otherwise, search the car. I would not allow “racial” profiling per se, but I would allow for “gang” profiling, thus if a black or hispanic is wearing gang clothes, tattoos, colors, etc, they can be profiled. If they are only “wanna-bes”- well, that’s THEIR fault for wanting to look like thugs. Yes, this will result in more minorities being pulled over- but at least fro a valid reason.
The best way to stop “racial profiling” is by putting video cameras on police cars. 90% of the time these will HELP the officer defend himself in a complaint, but the other 10%- well, the bad cops are worse than drug thugs, or any of that ilk. There are very few bad cops- BUT, the good cops will protect them nowadays, which is wrong.
I admit that my remarks were a bit harsh. It’s curious how one word causes such an emotional response. I will not use the N word anymore, even though I believe its more frequent use will lessen its hugely negative connotation.
My use of the N word was aimed not at all blacks in general, but to those who have tried to rob me.
As for racial profiling, it’s a very sticky issue. I have, from experience, just found it easier to avoid groups of black youths on the street.
You people are all set to lynch me. But a few ranting words does not a bigot make.
I am being near constantly harassed by only black people. And yes, I admit the sample size of my own experience is too small to make any kind of blanket generalization. So I was wrong, okay, dammit.
Blacks commit more crime as a percentage of their population. This is a fact that cannot be denied. There are many underlying reasons for this, economics being a leading factor.
This does not mean blacks commit more crimes than whites. More crimes are committed by white people than by black people just because there are so many more white people in this country.
So what is the justification for racial profiling? If most of the crimes committed in this country are comitted by white people, why do police target blacks? Why is it assumed that a black person is a criminal, without any prior indication that this particular person has committed a crime? What justification do law enforcement agencies that admit to profiling use? Does anyone have a cite (or site) that explains why profiles are used?
I’m not sure if the police stop anyone for no cause in these racial profiling cases. (I know they do in general, in sobriety checkpoints and the like, but my impression is that in these parkway pullovers they generally have some traffic violation). I was merely referring to the fact that the motivation for pulling over these drivers - whatever the official reason - is not always borne out.
We’ve been down this individual freedom/civil liberties road before, so there’s no need to hash the whole thing out again. Suffice it to say that different people have different visions concerning the extent to which one might allow the practical needs of society to infringe on the indiviual rights of its members.
Of course. Obviously the police concern themselves with their perspective, and the judges with theirs. That is why the police and judiciary must operate independently.
And furthermore.
I have refined my thoughts a bit.
I was truly afraid I was becoming a bigot. But I know myself better than that. In the circle of people that I know, I judge them only by their character, and not by the color of their skin, or the clothes they wear. As for strangers I meet on the street, I have only the stereotypes. And when these stereotypes are constantly reinforced, well, it takes a strong man not to give in.
I do hate. It is only human. But I usually have the strength to overcome it. Sometimes I slip, and for that I apologize.
But I don’t truly regret my words. This is a good opportunity to explore our deeper emotions. I am a filthy animal, and I love every second of being it.
May I offer my 2 cents worth?
You have a police force designated with the odorous and almost impossible job of protecting people from themselves. Within certain demographical sections, criminal activity ranging from minor things to felonies are obviously higher. In certain areas, the majority race often looks at law enforcers with hostility, regardless of the race of the officers.
It is known absolutely that, for whatever reason, certain races tend to generate more crime, especially when clustered in specific areas. Considering this, racial profiling is inevitable.
The officers doing the profile are on duty, risking their lives and if the profiling keeps them from getting killed, then by all means, do it.
I’m white and drive an old car, which is in great mechanical shape, but somewhat rough in appearance and when I drive through the wealthy sections of town, I’ve been stopped, checked and followed but it doesn’t bug me because the same thing happens which I drive through the poorer sections of color.
A profile is created because the percentages of a person of a certain race or ethnic group committing a certain form of crime are proven high. Like, you spot a group of young, white males, ages 19 through 24, all driving battered, huge wheeled pickups, all wearing baseball caps, all with short hair, jeans, work boots, all with gun racks in the windows clustered off to one side of an empty parking lot and you think several things.
Rednecks, beer, pot, guns, a tendency to fight, loud, argumentative, spouse abuse, criminal history and racism.
Spot a group of Black males, same age range, same place, driving cars ranging from conventional to lowboys, all in ghetto cloths, playing booming rap music, wearing backwards caps, Islamic skull caps, bald heads, you think several more things.
Guns, knives, crack, racism, argumentative, a tendency to fight, 40s, and criminal records.
Now, select the parking lot of a multimillion dollar office building, spot a group of white and black males of the same age, driving top of the line, well kept imports, wearing fine casual clothing, acting ‘cool’ and you think: drug dealers.
Why?
Because such hunches are most often correct. So, profiling happens. We’ll have to live with it.
Not true. Absolutely false. This is the faulty reasoning of racial profiling. When and where has it been proven that young black males driving expensive cars have a higher percentage of being drug dealers than any other young male driving an expensive car?
This is the perception that black people have to labor under day in and day out, living in the good US of A.
It is this attitude
and this reasoning:
that fosters this attitude:
It’s always good to know that us black people are pre-judged as criminals just by the clothes we wear and the fact that we like to hang around with other black people.
I disagree BIGGIRL.
Having lived in several large cities, having always had police friends and having hung around police stations long enough, I’m very much aware of how certain ethnic groups tend to generate a much higher percentage of the crime in certain areas.
Notice, though, nowhere did I stipulate any race, so you must be paranoid.
In certain areas of the country, it is American Indians and Mexicans, in other areas it is Asians, in still more areas it is Blacks, then there are Whites, depending upon their ethnic grouping. Over all, one or two specific races tend to have the highest amount of criminal activity in the States, a verifiable fact. Examine the jail population to determine which two races make up the majority of the inmates.
This is ignoring all of the many reasons as to why they have the highest rate. Cops are not interested in the subject races lifestyles, poverty, family or social problems, economic factors, ancestral histories, religious beliefs or traditional roles. They are interested in who did what to whom and whether or not to arrest them. They are concerned with making sure that violators of the laws are removed, even if briefly, from the general public for the common good, even if that common good consists of a neighborhood block.
When employed as an armed security guard, I had more problems with a small number of two races than with the greater number of several others. I found that the majority of the time, when approaching such members, I could expect surliness, resistance, mockery, anger, hostility and occasional violence than from the other races.
It’s good to see that you are fond of taking things out of context, and stacking them up to say only what you want them to. I consider that a paranoid and hostile action or trait. Of course, you never mentioned the similarities I included about whites. Could this be racist thinking on your behalf? You saw my post only as an attack on blacks, when blacks were only one of the races mentioned?
On the West Coast, the officers find the Hispanics more prone to be in gangs, driven by an exaggerated sense of honor, of male image, to be several times more apt to respond with a gun or other violence. So they are more cautious when approaching them.
A couple of hundred miles away, they have a similar problem, but with Asians. And, so on and so on.
The over all observation is still that two primary races, for whatever reason, tend to cause the most crimes. Of these crimes, they tend to perform the most deadly and violent. After many years, officers have determined that an X person of Y race, who dresses in Z type clothing, has B style body language, drives most commonly C type cars and hangs out in D type areas will probably commit crimes of E, F, and G or be found to be holding weapons H and I, or illegal materials, J, K, and L.
I drive down the road a ways and locate a small bar where #1 type of people hang out. Most are male. Most drive #2 type of vehicle. The music in the bar is mainly #3 as well as the music coming out of the vehicles. The people dress mainly in #4 style, with variations. They tend to clump, look sullenly at police cars which drive by, are known to get drunk as heck and start fights, and out of any cluster of 6, at least one will be carrying #5 illegal substance and 3 will be holding #6 or #7 weapons. The cops go there often because of fights, destruction of property, gun shots, drug deals and general bad behavior. Problems pop up of a person or persons of #8 color stop in, though few rarely do. It’s not their type of bar. Out of any 10 people, 4 will have a criminal record, out of any 20 people there, at least 1 will be wanted by the cops. Out of the 15 vehicles in the parking lot, 2 will have stolen items in them, 1 will have a bullet hole and 1 will have dents in it from deliberately ramming another vehicle in anger.
So, what race frequents this bar?
The cops profile these people when they see them on the road because of their vehicles, the way they dress and the way they act. They get stopped with caution, especially if more than one person is in the vehicle. They are known to get belligerent, not often known to pull a certain weapon, but frequently one can be found hidden in the vehicle. They have a tendency to be big, strong, hard headed, irrational when drunk and devious. They frequently prefer to use a certain type of drug. Often they drive flashy vehicles of a certain type, tend to wear footwear of a certain form and like to wear headgear of a specific type.
So, who are these people and why are they being profiled?
But you did stipulate race. Right here:
and here:
I’m not paranoid so much as you seem to be forgetful.
Blacks and Indians do not commit more crimes than whites. There are just not enough of us. Granted, as I’ve stated before, people of color commit more crimes as a percentage of their population, but not more crimes in raw numbers. So that fact that there are more people of color in jail than white people just highlights how disporportionatly people of color are arrested and convicted.
It’s good to see that you are fond of taking things out of context, and stacking them up to say only what you want them to. I consider that a paranoid and hostile action or trait. Of course, you never mentioned the similarities I included about whites. Could this be racist thinking on your behalf? You saw my post only as an attack on blacks, when blacks were only one of the races mentioned?
[/quote]
I don’t see how I took this out of context. You are in fact saying that you can tell a criminal by what color they are, what they are wearing and who they are hanging out with.
We are not discussing arresting known gang members. We are discussing racial profiling. The stopping of people who are not committing any crimes, are not even suspected of comitting a crime.
Oh, wait, they are suspected of being criminals. Because they fit a pre-ordained profile. In most cases this profile is: They are black. They are driving a nice car. Your own words (just in case you are accusing me of putting words in your mouth) were:
So if your are in a parking lot of a multimillion dollar office and are driving a nice car, this makes you a prime suspect for drug dealing. I think this would make you a prime suspect for working in a multimillion dollar office, but, as you say, I’m just being paraniod.
If 80% of the people you stop fit a certain discription, then it stands to reason that close to 80% of the people you arrest will fit this discription. In this country you are innocent until proven guilty. Unless you are a person of X or Y race, who dresses in Z type clothes and has B body style.
Racial profiling has nothing to do with known criminal hangouts. It has nothing to do with following leads. It has everything to do with pre-judging people not wanted or suspected for any crime. And let me state again, loudly and emphatically: ***PEOPLE OF COLOR DO NOT COMMIT THE MAJORITY OF CRIMES IN THIS COUNTRY! THERE ARE SIMPLY NOT ENOUGH OF THEM.
Biggirl, the population is not distributed evenly. Some places will have blacks that make up 50% of the population. Therefore profiling would be ok in that situation?