# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/181 "2018-07-12T21:39:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And in your opinion, how well has affirmative action been instituted in the last 20 years? We’ve had affirmative action for half a century now and the benefits seem to be tailing off, perhaps its time we tried something else. Besides, it really looks like the supreme court will be getting rid of it soon. better to find some non-race based way of achieving a more equitable society. I’m happy to discuss alternative ideas. But not if the discussion essentially comes down to _“Let’s immediately abandon affirmative action and any other program with similar goals. And let’s pinky swear that we’ll consider getting together at some indeterminate point in the indefinite future to maybe talk about the possibility of developing something that might replace it.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/182 "2018-07-12T21:42:27Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Hey, look everybody. Will has put me on ignore! I WIN TEH INTERNETS! > > I guess that’s my cue to leave the thread myself. But don’t worry about leaving me behind, Will. Since your arguments are exactly the same in every thread, just bookmark this one and read my posts. Thus I refute Berkeley. I’m curious. How can you tell when somebody has you on their ignore list? It can’t just be that Will isn’t responding to your posts. He doesn’t respond to a lot of the posts written by other people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/183 "2018-07-12T21:50:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And in your opinion, how well has affirmative action been instituted in the last 20 years? We’ve had affirmative action for half a century now and the benefits seem to be tailing off, perhaps its time we tried something else. Besides, it really looks like the supreme court will be getting rid of it soon. better to find some non-race based way of achieving a more equitable society. Mostly well, IMO. Not perfect. And it’s just one tool of many. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/184 "2018-07-12T21:59:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Crafting state policy around class has historically been bad for freedom and prosperity. I assume you mean Communism, but I’m not sure how Stalin and affirmative action equate. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/185 "2018-07-12T22:02:01Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The rest of your OP was rather confusing but I think you’re asking the almost the right question here. But instead of ‘white’ and ‘black’ you need to use ‘us’ and ‘not us’. And you need to ask why you are asking the question in the first place. Skin colour is irrelevant, as those in the former Yugoslavia would tell you, as would Rwandans, as would the Northern Irish, as would so many others. > > And the answer, I think, is that America has itself to blame: you Americans insist on people being XYZ-Americans rather than plain Americans. By doing so you are perpetuating the divisions. Instead of learning from the past you are perpetuating the mistakes of the past by implementing them in a new way. Ah, yes, the old “Why can’t we all just be called Americans?” bit. Here’s one reason: racism is still an issue. So an incident in my town from two years ago would have been reported like this: “An American man is in serious but stable condition after being stabbed by an American man who was outraged that the American man was kissing an American woman.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/186 "2018-07-12T22:27:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m curious. How can you tell when somebody has you on their ignore list? > > It can’t just be that Will isn’t responding to your posts. He doesn’t respond to a lot of the posts written by other people. [swirling space-loops]I read his mind.[/swirling space-loops] ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/187 "2018-07-12T22:35:46Z")
I find it interesting that the left believes in the concepts of racial and gender differences when convenient and doesn’t believe in those concepts when convenient. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/188 "2018-07-12T22:40:01Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I find it interesting that the left believes in the concepts of racial and gender differences when convenient and doesn’t believe in those concepts when convenient. Replace your “convenient” with “relevant”, and see if it still baffles you. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/189 "2018-07-12T22:42:11Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I find it interesting that the left believes in the concepts of racial and gender differences when convenient and doesn’t believe in those concepts when convenient. Do you believe right wingers like yourself have a subjective or objective definition of race? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/190 "2018-07-12T22:46:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I find it interesting that the left believes in the concepts of racial and gender differences when convenient and doesn’t believe in those concepts when convenient. I find cryptic statements like this rather boring. If you want to interact, ask questions or challenge statements. Cryptic nonsense doesn’t really add anything. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/191 "2018-07-12T23:05:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Replace your “convenient” with “relevant”, and see if it still baffles you. You mean politically relevant? Because I don’t see any way to reconcile the hypocrisy. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Do you believe right wingers like yourself have a subjective or objective definition of race? What do you mean by right wingers? It seems to me that groups of biological organisms are very difficult to precisely define. It’s hard to define what a planet is as well. I try not to get sidetracked with the pointless question of precise definitions of fuzzy sets. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I find cryptic statements like this rather boring. If you want to interact, ask questions or challenge statements. Cryptic nonsense doesn’t really add anything. I choose how I wish to interact. You might find it rather boring and that’s your right. Your dismissive attitude is an interesting tactic of discredit but again you’re entitled to employ such tactics. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/192 "2018-07-12T23:11:09Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I choose how I wish to interact. You might find it rather boring and that’s your right. Your dismissive attitude is an interesting tactic of discredit but again you’re entitled to employ such tactics. Okay. I stand ready to answer any questions or respond to any disagreements if you decide that’s what you’d like to do. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/193 "2018-07-12T23:21:23Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > [swirling space-loops]I read his mind.[/swirling space-loops] Dammit, I knew I should have paid for the extended membership package. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/194 "2018-07-12T23:53:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What do you mean by right wingers? It seems to me that groups of biological organisms are very difficult to precisely define. It’s hard to define what a planet is as well. I try not to get sidetracked with the pointless question of precise definitions of fuzzy sets. So, if you have shifting definitions of race because it is difficult to define, why do you criticize liberals for having similar views? That’s a real question. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/195 "2018-07-12T23:58:38Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > That would be irrelevant. My question asks if using the standard of self-identification is consistent with the desires of advocates of race-based policy. This does not sound like a GQ topic. This is your question: > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you think someone like Clint Howard getting a contract with funds designated for minority-owned businesses is in line with progressive policy and rhetoric? If you are ignorant of the policy being applied, then it is absolutely a relevant and GQable topic. \* If\* you’re actually interested in learning about it. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/196 "2018-07-13T00:29:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So, if you have shifting definitions of race because it is difficult to define, why do you criticize liberals for having similar views? > That’s a real question. I don’t criticize liberals for not being able to precisely define these sort of terms. I criticize liberals for inconsistency regarding the existence and utility of these fuzzy sets based purely on political/ideological concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/197 "2018-07-13T01:01:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t criticize liberals for not being able to precisely define these sort of terms. I criticize liberals for inconsistency regarding the existence and utility of these fuzzy sets based purely on political/ideological concerns. Some definitions are incredibly precise and easy to devise. Liberals: those who say that the people complaining loudly and persistently about being discriminated against because of race are the legitimate judges of these terms. Conservatives: those who believe that only whites’ definitions and judgements count. Liberals: those who are totally baffled that people can believe anything that inhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/198 "2018-07-13T01:12:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t criticize liberals for not being able to precisely define these sort of terms. I criticize liberals for inconsistency regarding the existence and utility of these fuzzy sets based purely on political/ideological concerns. Can you give an example of this inconsistency? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/199 "2018-07-13T01:14:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t criticize liberals for not being able to precisely define these sort of terms. I criticize liberals for inconsistency regarding the existence and utility of these fuzzy sets based purely on political/ideological concerns. Racism, as I have pointed out, is a set of irrational beliefs. So you have to take that irrationality into account when you’re opposing racism. There’s no logical reason why white racists in America hate black people more than they hate Asians. But they do. So we need to spend more resources opposing racism directed against black people than we spend opposing racism directed against Asian people. Our policies have to be somewhat fuzzy because we’re opposing people who have fuzzy brains. If racists could articulate a consistent precise set of their beliefs and actions then we could address them with consistent and precise counter-actions. But if racists were capable of that kind of thinking, they wouldn’t be racists. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/200 "2018-07-13T01:17:41Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Some definitions are incredibly precise and easy to devise. > > Liberals: those who say that the people complaining loudly and persistently about being discriminated against because of race are the legitimate judges of these terms. > > Conservatives: those who believe that only whites’ definitions and judgements count. > > Liberals: those who are totally baffled that people can believe anything that inhuman. This is a very liberal answer to give, and it smacks of ignorance. I have worked alongside minorities for years, as an equal - I’m not a supervisor or anyone’s boss. There is no agreement whatsoever among them as to what constitutes discrimination, and many would chafe at this view that puts minorities in such a neat little box with a pretty little bow on top. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=11)