# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/201 "2018-07-13T01:24:04Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Some definitions are incredibly precise and easy to devise. > > Liberals: those who say that the people complaining loudly and persistently about being discriminated against because of race are the legitimate judges of these terms. > > Conservatives: those who believe that only whites’ definitions and judgements count. > > Liberals: those who are totally baffled that people can believe anything that inhuman. Precise. Easy to define. Wholly inaccurate and knowingly so. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Can you give an example of this inconsistency? Proclaiming that people should be treated equally then demanding unequal treatment with race based quotas and affirmative action. That’s an easy one. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Racism, as I have pointed out, is a set of irrational beliefs. So you have to take that irrationality into account when you’re opposing racism. > > There’s no logical reason why white racists in America hate black people more than they hate Asians. But they do. So we need to spend more resources opposing racism directed against black people than we spend opposing racism directed against Asian people. > > Our policies have to be somewhat fuzzy because we’re opposing people who have fuzzy brains. If racists could articulate a consistent precise set of their beliefs and actions then we could address them with consistent and precise counter-actions. But if racists were capable of that kind of thinking, they wouldn’t be racists. Fuzzy is fine. Completely contradictory is not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/202 "2018-07-13T01:27:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Proclaiming that people should be treated equally then demanding unequal treatment with race based quotas and affirmative action. That’s an easy one I guess. Unless “People should be treated equally. But, since people weren’t treated equally for such a long time, perhaps we should help out those who have been treated unequally to allow them to catch up to the people who weren’t treated unequally” is an inconsistent position. But if it is, so what? You just want to hear them say that? For what? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/203 "2018-07-13T01:36:52Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I guess. Unless “People should be treated equally. But, since people weren’t treated equally for such a long time, perhaps we should help out those who have been treated unequally to allow them to catch up to the people who weren’t treated unequally” is an inconsistent position. But if it is, so what? You just want to hear them say that? For what? Right. But unfair advantages in the past were a sign of insufficient progress on human rights and unfair advantages to a whole different set of people is unfair now. Instead of giving a leg up based on skin color or genitalia we could, and it would be vastly less controversial, focus on class based remedies. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/204 "2018-07-13T01:41:55Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Right. But unfair advantages in the past were a sign of insufficient progress on human rights and unfair advantages to a whole different set of people is unfair now. Instead of giving a leg up based on skin color or genitalia we could, and it would be vastly less controversial, focus on class based remedies. Maybe. Sounds like a good topic for a debate “Should we focus on class based remedies instead of race based remedies?” But focusing on making liberals says that current remedies to overcome past injustices against races is “racist” makes your opinion itself seem racist. Maybe you should focus less on what “liberals” think, and more on what “Americans” can do to help the less fortunate of our country? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/205 "2018-07-13T01:44:29Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > This is a very liberal answer to give, and it smacks of ignorance. I have worked alongside minorities for years, as an equal - I’m not a supervisor or anyone’s boss. There is no agreement whatsoever among them as to what constitutes discrimination, and many would chafe at this view that puts minorities in such a neat little box with a pretty little bow on top. Well, it’s pretty terrific then that I never said that minorities agree on what individual acts of discrimination are. Dodged another bullet. What I said - several times, as a matter of fact, in this thread alone - is that darker-skinned people say constantly that they are being discriminated against by white people. And that I, unlike WillFarnaby, believe them when they say this. Therefore, racially-based discrimination actually occurs. And in large numbers. And that we should not stand around waiting for everybody in the world to become colorblind before whites do something to alleviate this. Are you, as an apparent non-liberal, saying that any or all of is not true? You know us liberals: we hate saying things that aren’t true. That’s how you tell us from conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/206 "2018-07-13T01:44:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I guess. Unless “People should be treated equally. But, since people weren’t treated equally for such a long time, perhaps we should help out those who have been treated unequally to allow them to catch up to the people who weren’t treated unequally” is an inconsistent position. But if it is, so what? You just want to hear them say that? For what? Treating people “equally” is of no value when one person (or people) begins with massive advantages. If we accept everyone being treated “equally,” then whites and Asians would dominate colleges while Africans would continue to be disadvantaged. On an individual basis we might say each person is treated as “equal” but in reality the outcome is not “equal” by any definition of the word. This is the root claim of affirmative action. The status quo is inherently “unequal” and it will continue to be “unequal” until we take steps to correct it. The paradox is that being race-blind sounds “equal,” but upon examination it is absolutely not. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/207 "2018-07-13T01:48:25Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Treating people “equally” is of no value when one person (or people) begins with massive advantages. If we accept everyone being treated “equally,” then whites and Asians would dominate colleges while Africans would continue to be disadvantaged. On an individual basis we might say each person is treated as “equal” but in reality the outcome is not “equal” by any definition of the word. > > This is the root claim of affirmative action. The status quo is inherently “unequal” and it will continue to be “unequal” until we take steps to correct it. > > The paradox is that being race-blind sounds “equal,” but upon examination it is absolutely not. You don’t have to explain this to me. I agree with what you are saying. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/208 "2018-07-13T01:57:33Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Well, it’s pretty terrific then that I never said that minorities agree on what individual acts of discrimination are. Dodged another bullet. > > What I said - several times, as a matter of fact, in this thread alone - is that darker-skinned people say constantly that they are being discriminated against by white people. And that I, unlike WillFarnaby, believe them when they say this. Therefore, racially-based discrimination actually occurs. And in large numbers. And that we should not stand around waiting for everybody in the world to become colorblind before whites do something to alleviate this. > > Are you, as an apparent non-liberal, saying that any or all of is not true? You know us liberals: we hate saying things that aren’t true. That’s how you tell us from conservatives. I’m a moderate - I’m not really in love with either side. It is true what you say - I misjudged things by not taking into consideration the entire context of your comments. I am very touchy about people that try to stereotype groups of people - especially if they are people I am close to; my biases spring from that. Really I’m irritated by politics in general because these are serious issues, and they do effect people I know. Oftentimes, however, they are dealt with too much in the abstract and it fosters a sort of tribalism that I don’t see helping anybody. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/209 "2018-07-13T01:59:45Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Maybe. Sounds like a good topic for a debate “Should we focus on class based remedies instead of race based remedies?” > > But focusing on making liberals says that current remedies to overcome past injustices against races is “racist” makes your opinion itself seem racist. Maybe you should focus less on what “liberals” think, and more on what “Americans” can do to help the less fortunate of our country? Yeah. Saying an unpopular among liberals opinion is racist or “seems racist” is meaningless at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/210 "2018-07-13T02:01:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah. Saying an unpopular among liberals opinion is racist or “seems racist” is meaningless at this point. Well, if you realize that, why keep doing it? Switch to something else that a debate can be had on. Keeping pushing it like that just seems like you want to “win” a debate with people on a message board instead of trying to understand what others are saying. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/211 "2018-07-13T02:11:52Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Ok then maybe you aren’t up to the task. That’s fine. There’s always gubmint work. Cheap shots do nothing to make your point and when they veer over near personal attacks they not only fail to make your point, they come close to getting you silenced. Dial it back. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/212 "2018-07-13T02:33:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, if you realize that, why keep doing it? Switch to something else that a debate can be had on. Keeping pushing it like that just seems like you want to “win” a debate with people on a message board instead of trying to understand what others are saying. Because there is a subset of liberals that cynically exploit these concepts and I think they are dangerous in the long term. It’s very unfortunate that the two party system is so stable in the US because each party is infested with a counterproductive contingent. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/213 "2018-07-13T02:35:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because there is a subset of liberals that cynically exploit these concepts and I think they are dangerous in the long term. It’s very unfortunate that the two party system is so stable in the US because each party is infested with a counterproductive contingent. And you feel it is your job or duty to root out this “subset” that exists on this message board and expose them for the hypocritical people they are? Or would you rather have a good discussion about an important topic? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/214 "2018-07-13T02:39:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because there is a subset of liberals that cynically exploit these concepts and I think they are dangerous in the long term. It’s very unfortunate that the two party system is so stable in the US because each party is infested with a counterproductive contingent. The sins of each side are nowhere near of the same magnitude. Right now most office-holders from one party are consistently cheerleading indecency, incompetence, and bigotry. There are no sins of the present Democratic party that come close. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/215 "2018-07-13T02:40:30Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And you feel it is your job or duty to root out this “subset” that exists on this message board and expose them for the hypocritical people they are? Or would you rather have a good discussion about an important topic? I think it’s possible to do both. Because I think it’s important if real justice is to occur that the inherently contradictory positions that some hold are accurately identified, the predictable ad-hominem reaction handled, and the underlying motives exposed. I’d do the same in a thread about religion and how the adherents are often exploited for the good of the powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/216 "2018-07-13T04:08:53Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Right. But unfair advantages in the past were a sign of insufficient progress on human rights and unfair advantages to a whole different set of people is unfair now. Instead of giving a leg up based on skin color or genitalia we could, and it would be vastly less controversial, focus on class based remedies. Do you go to cancer wards and complain about how unfair it is that everyone there is getting chemo and you’re not getting any? You don’t get affirmative action because you haven’t gone through the problems that affirmative action is addressing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/217 "2018-07-13T04:14:06Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Well, it’s pretty terrific then that I never said that minorities agree on what individual acts of discrimination are. Dodged another bullet. > > What I said - several times, as a matter of fact, in this thread alone - is that darker-skinned people say constantly that they are being discriminated against by white people. And that I, unlike WillFarnaby, believe them when they say this. Therefore, racially-based discrimination actually occurs. And in large numbers. And that we should not stand around waiting for everybody in the world to become colorblind before whites do something to alleviate this. > > Are you, as an apparent non-liberal, saying that any or all of is not true? You know us liberals: we hate saying things that aren’t true. That’s how you tell us from conservatives. I won’t go as far as to say that I will accept every claim of discrimination. But I won’t dismiss them either. I’ll listen to claims of discrimination and if a pattern emerges, I’ll believe it exists. And that pattern has emerged in many cases and I believe that discrimination is real. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/218 "2018-07-13T04:22:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Maybe. Sounds like a good topic for a debate “Should we focus on class based remedies instead of race based remedies?” > > But focusing on making liberals says that current remedies to overcome past injustices against races is “racist” makes your opinion itself seem racist. Maybe you should focus less on what “liberals” think, and more on what “Americans” can do to help the less fortunate of our country? To a certain extent, I can agree. But there are a couple of important counter-arguments that shouldn’t be put aside. First, there are problems that all back people face that are separate from the problems of being poor. You can be a middle-class black person or even a wealthy black person and still experience racism. Second, resources are always limited. There will never be enough to give everyone all of the help they need. And I believe, based on history, that if you just help poor black people through programs intended to help poor people in general, then the priority for resources will be given to poor white people and poor black people will just get the scraps. The only way you can be sure that poor black people get adequate resources is to specifically earmark a share of the resources for their exclusive use. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/219 "2018-07-13T04:51:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Do you go to cancer wards and complain about how unfair it is that everyone there is getting chemo and you’re not getting any? > > You don’t get affirmative action because you haven’t gone through the problems that affirmative action is addressing. That’s a terrible analogy. Furthermore affirmative action sucks as a solution for the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/220 "2018-07-13T04:53:37Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To a certain extent, I can agree. But there are a couple of important counter-arguments that shouldn’t be put aside. > > First, there are problems that all back people face that are separate from the problems of being poor. You can be a middle-class black person or even a wealthy black person and still experience racism. > > Second, resources are always limited. There will never be enough to give everyone all of the help they need. And I believe, based on history, that if you just help poor black people through programs intended to help poor people in general, then the priority for resources will be given to poor white people and poor black people will just get the scraps. The only way you can be sure that poor black people get adequate resources is to specifically earmark a share of the resources for their exclusive use. Anyone can be racist. This includes blacks. Anyone can be the target of racist action. Secondly, we should be helping individuals not members of a cherry picked races. A racist solution is a bad solution for many reasons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=12)