# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/221 "2018-07-13T06:41:18Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > That’s a terrible analogy. Furthermore affirmative action sucks as a solution for the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow laws. Really. What year do you think racism ceased to exist in America? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/222 "2018-07-13T06:51:23Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Anyone can be racist. This includes blacks. Anyone can be the target of racist action. I agree. Anyone can be a racist and anyone can be the target of racism. That’s why I said it’s important to look at the patterns. If you see one incident, you can write it off as a possible fluke. If you see a hundred similar incidents, you should begin to get concerned. If you see a million similar incidents, you should either admit it’s racism or become a conservative. > [@octopus](#): > > Secondly, we should be helping individuals not members of a cherry picked races. A racist solution is a bad solution for many reasons. People are targeted by racism because of their membership in a group. Therefore, treating racism as a group issue is the best way to combat racism. I agree that a racist solution would be a bad solution. But I’m pretty sure we have different definitions of what the word racist means. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/223 "2018-07-13T07:47:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Really. What year do you think racism ceased to exist in America? I never said it did. And while problematic MORE racism is not the solution. Collective punishments and rewards are unjust are they not? And racist actions like affirmative action and that debate is still besides the point regarding the intellectual inconsistency of holding the simultaneous views that race is both fake and real depending on a political calculation. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree. Anyone can be a racist and anyone can be the target of racism. That’s why I said it’s important to look at the patterns. If you see one incident, you can write it off as a possible fluke. If you see a hundred similar incidents, you should begin to get concerned. If you see a million similar incidents, you should either admit it’s racism or become a conservative. > People are targeted by racism because of their membership in a group. Therefore, treating racism as a group issue is the best way to combat racism. > > I agree that a racist solution would be a bad solution. But I’m pretty sure we have different definitions of what the word racist means. Different people are impacted differently due to bigoted actions. Instead of using a very blunt tool to fix the _impact_ of racist or discriminatory action using a precise tool to help people who need help is not only more just but it’s an easier sell. This race based quota thing that an Asian group is suing about in Ivy League schools is going to cause a lot of grief when the US Supreme Court finally makes a decision. And rightfully so. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/224 "2018-07-13T08:06:05Z")
The correct way to fix an imbalance is not to immediately make things equal. If you start with a scale that has 15 lbs on one side, and 5 on the other, you can’t fix that by constantly adding 1 lb to both sides. You will have to be unbalanced for a while until things are equal. That said, we don’t want to just add those 10 lbs right away, as it takes time and resources. The other scale needs help, too\*. So we give it just a little more. And we keep on givinv it a little more. That is the nature of racism. To fix the problem, we will first have to get all other races to parity with white people. Then we can go about being equal. But we also don’t want to not help everyone else, because poor white people need help, too. So we help all of them, but non-whites a little more, and eventually things will be balanced. Only then can we do things evenly. Doing otherwise will mean that one side will always be 10 lbs more than the other. \*admittedly, this is where the metaphor breaks down. But stay with me. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/225 "2018-07-13T09:22:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Debating who exactly is black is a ridiculous approach to these problems. Waving a magic wand to make everyone blind to race won’t solve any of the current problems caused by past injustice. It would solve problems caused by present and future injustices, which would be a huge improvment. I’m not sure how anti racist activists became so fond of racial categorization according to skin tone. It’s the source of the problem but somehow you don’t want it to go away. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/226 "2018-07-13T10:31:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It would solve problems caused by present and future injustices, which would be a huge improvment. > > I’m not sure how anti racist activists became so fond of racial categorization according to skin tone. It’s the source of the problem but somehow you don’t want it to go away. It’s the source of the problem - the _continuing_ source of the problem. And yeah, if everyone suddenly became blind to race, things would be better. We wouldn’t have an opportunity to solve past racial injustices, but it would probably be better and things would have a bit more of a chance to even out. The problem is that attempts to be “colorblind” generally are nothing of the sort! Rather, they demand that institutional solutions to racism be discarded, while offering nothing to actually combat the discrimination that PoC face on a near-daily basis. In practice, colorblindness robs us of the ability to acknowledge that racists gonna racist, denies the lived experience of PoC, and takes away our abilities to systematically push back against that racism. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/227 "2018-07-13T10:52:28Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > I don’t criticize liberals for not being able to precisely define these sort of terms. I criticize liberals for inconsistency regarding the existence and utility of these fuzzy sets based purely on political/ideological concerns. I’m not following. Be specific. Give examples of where race is redefined on politics concerns. And how do you distinguish between ambiguity is race based on the nature of it being imprecise, versus ambiguity based on politics views? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/228 "2018-07-13T12:41:16Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Proclaiming that people should be treated equally then demanding unequal treatment with race based quotas and affirmative action. That’s an easy one. It’s like an emergency room triage. Yes, everyone should be treated equally, but everyone should not receive equal treatment. You would not expect the person that comes in with a broken leg to receive the same treatment as someone who comes in with severe chest pains, would you? So, why would the remedies for unequal treatment of demographics need to always be the same, when the problems they face are not? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/229 "2018-07-13T12:51:58Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The correct way to fix an imbalance is not to immediately make things equal. If you start with a scale that has 15 lbs on one side, and 5 on the other, you can’t fix that by constantly adding 1 lb to both sides. You will have to be unbalanced for a while until things are equal. That said, we don’t want to just add those 10 lbs right away, as it takes time and resources. The other scale needs help, too\*. So we give it just a little more. And we keep on givinv it a little more. > > That is the nature of racism. To fix the problem, we will first have to get all other races to parity with white people. Then we can go about being equal. But we also don’t want to not help everyone else, because poor white people need help, too. So we help all of them, but non-whites a little more, and eventually things will be balanced. > > Only then can we do things evenly. Doing otherwise will mean that one side will always be 10 lbs more than the other. > > \*admittedly, this is where the metaphor breaks down. But stay with me. It seems the conservative solution is to continue to place weights on the already heavy end of the scale, under the theory that some of them may fall off to the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/230 "2018-07-13T13:32:58Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > As opponents of an equitable society are specifically using race as a way of increasing the inequalities, I’m sure that those bigots would appreciate your suggestions that we ignore the effects of their actions. WTF are you talking about? Where do I suggest we ignore bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/231 "2018-07-13T13:45:26Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Doubtful. A leader like that is ripe for a coup by cynics who would take advantage of his message of love and equality, and turn it into an organization that instead justifies hatreds based on deliberate misunderstandings of the leader’s message. Well damn. I thought I was on to something! What if they wrote his message down in a book that everyone could read at anytime? That would surely cut down on the misunderstandings, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/232 "2018-07-13T14:14:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF are you talking about? Where do I suggest we ignore bigotry? That’s a good question, but for it to be relevant, you would have to show where I suggest that you suggested that we ignored bigotry. Now, ignoring the effects of bigotry is a different matter, and that is exactly what you are suggesting when you say that we should combat racism without considering the effect of racial inequality. > [@Slash1972](#): > > Well damn. I thought I was on to something! What if they wrote his message down in a book that everyone could read at anytime? That would surely cut down on the misunderstandings, wouldn’t it? Good idea. If he was quoted as saying “Love your neighbor, as yourself”, then nothing could go wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/233 "2018-07-13T14:24:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m happy to discuss alternative ideas. > > But not if the discussion essentially comes down to _“Let’s immediately abandon affirmative action and any other program with similar goals. And let’s pinky swear that we’ll consider getting together at some indeterminate point in the indefinite future to maybe talk about the possibility of developing something that might replace it.”_ What goal is it that you think affirmative action is trying to achieve" This may be the source of our different positions on affirmative action. Do you foresee a time when this goal would be achieved short of proportionate representation in education, wealth, employment, etc. by race? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/234 "2018-07-13T14:27:31Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Ah, yes, the old “Why can’t we all just be called Americans?” bit. Here’s one reason: racism is still an issue. So an incident in my town from two years ago would have been reported like this: “An American man is in serious but stable condition after being stabbed by an American man who was outraged that the American man was kissing an American woman.” Did the authorities arrest the stabber or look the other way? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/235 "2018-07-13T14:32:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > There’s no logical reason why white racists in America hate black people more than they hate Asians. But they do. So we need to spend more resources opposing racism directed against black people than we spend opposing racism directed against Asian people. Not to excuse racism but white racists used to be pretty good at hating Asians. But that changed. Why and how do you think that happened? Did they start to favor Asians and lavish them with income and education and all that stuff because they just wanted to make black people look bad? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/236 "2018-07-13T14:45:03Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Not to excuse racism but white racists used to be pretty good at hating Asians. But that changed. Why and how do you think that happened? Did they start to favor Asians and lavish them with income and education and all that stuff because they just wanted to make black people look bad? In America, anti black racism has always been different in character and vehemence from every other type of racism, save perhaps anti Native American sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/237 "2018-07-13T14:46:05Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Not to excuse racism but white racists used to be pretty good at hating Asians. But that changed. Why and how do you think that happened? Did they start to favor Asians and lavish them with income and education and all that stuff because they just wanted to make black people look bad? 1. White racists don’t hate Asians any more? 2. And your alternate plan to replace affirmative action is…? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/238 "2018-07-13T14:47:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I guess. Unless “People should be treated equally. But, since people weren’t treated equally for such a long time, perhaps we should help out those who have been treated unequally to allow them to catch up to the people who weren’t treated unequally” is an inconsistent position. But if it is, so what? You just want to hear them say that? For what? What unequal treatment have Hispanics suffered that Asians have not? Hispanic communities are more or less on the trajectory that most other immigrant groups have seen throughout our history. The African American an American Indian case are unique. People act like affirmative action today is about remedying the past. Its not, not anymore. Its about giving advantages to whoever isn’t doing well at the time based on race (and not on whether the actual recipient of the preference). So we end up giving advantages to black students but the ones that reap the benefit of AA are middle class black, frequently the children of immigrants who were never subject to that long history of oppression. If you want to help poor people, then help poor people. Don’t help black people and think you have helped poor people. If you want t help the descendants of slaves then help the descendants of slaves. Don’t help Nigerian immigrants and think that you have helped the descendants of slaves. If you want to help black communities then help poor black communities, don’t help poor Hispanic communities and think you have helped poor black communities. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/239 "2018-07-13T14:49:30Z")
I think your last line negates the point you are trying to make. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2018, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/240 "2018-07-13T14:52:29Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Treating people “equally” is of no value when one person (or people) begins with massive advantages. If we accept everyone being treated “equally,” then whites and Asians would dominate colleges while Africans would continue to be disadvantaged. On an individual basis we might say each person is treated as “equal” but in reality the outcome is not “equal” by any definition of the word. > > This is the root claim of affirmative action. The status quo is inherently “unequal” and it will continue to be “unequal” until we take steps to correct it. > > The paradox is that being race-blind sounds “equal,” but upon examination it is absolutely not. What “massive advantages” did Asians start with? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=13)