# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/21 "2018-07-11T16:31:23Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Well, since this is the first time you used the phrase “political racism”, perhaps you would care to enlighten us as to what you mean? Race-based political policy and advocacy. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/22 "2018-07-11T16:37:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Race-based political policy and advocacy. Taxonomical definitions are notoriously difficult to structure precisely and accurately, and that’s when you’re dealing with physical objects (what’s a chair?) When it comes to sociological constructs, they’re damned near impossible to structure precisely and accurately. Are you unaware of this difficulty, or are you trying to score cheap points by acting like race is nonexistent due to the difficulty of defining it precisely and accurately? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/23 "2018-07-11T16:41:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I have a simple question for the many racialists among us. Who is white? Who is black? The rest of your OP was rather confusing but I think you’re asking the almost the right question here. But instead of ‘white’ and ‘black’ you need to use ‘us’ and ‘not us’. And you need to ask why you are asking the question in the first place. Skin colour is irrelevant, as those in the former Yugoslavia would tell you, as would Rwandans, as would the Northern Irish, as would so many others. And the answer, I think, is that America has itself to blame: you Americans insist on people being XYZ-Americans rather than plain Americans. By doing so you are perpetuating the divisions. Instead of learning from the past you are perpetuating the mistakes of the past by implementing them in a new way. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/24 "2018-07-11T16:43:22Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you deny that liberals want race-based policies and consider racial diversity to be a goal of policy? If so, maybe I am misunderstanding the position and you can clarify the liberal position on race. I want just policies and practices by society. If a group (racial or otherwise) isn’t being treated justly, on average, by institutions in society, then policies should be put into place to fix that. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you are familiar with the work of Jonathan Haidt who found that those on the right could articulate a more accurate representation of left positions than vice versa. Whether this is true or not (and I’ve seen conflicting studies), it’s irrelevant to your consistent wrongness when trying to psychoanalyze the motivations of the liberals you hold in so much contempt. You are almost always wrong when you try to dig into the motivations of liberals/progressives/Democrats, and you should stop trying to do so. Rather, when you want to know what they/we think, just ask. ---
**Author:** ![survinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@survinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/survinga)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/25 "2018-07-11T16:44:23Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This thread is mostly about people active in discussing politics. The everyday person is not as obsessed with racial classification as the rabid activists. Let’s be honest, I’m talking about the lower classes, who regard people on an individual basis rather than as members of a collective. When they talk in racial collective language it’s mostly harmless and they’re usually just joking around. > The politics of racialism are beloved across the political spectrum. We have the usual suspects, including your KKK, your neo-Nazis, your White Nationalists. They are still having a good time with this. You have your Trumpists, who prefer immigrants from Europe, whom they would classify as “White”. > > You also have your moderates who support race-based policies like affirmative action. Your right of center moderates don’t talk race too much. As soon as you tick past that plumb-line into the Obamas, Bidens, and Clinton’s, we start hearing it. Racialism is wholly inescapable in leftist rhetoric. Racial diversity is paramount. They group everyone into races and advocate for policy based on race. Every event that happens must be viewed through the racialist lens. > > I have a simple question for the many racialists among us. Who is white? Who is black? > > We have some historical examples. We had the “one drop rule”. Is this still in effect? We have the paper bag test. We have heritage-based claims of race, but these seem rather fluid and confusing. One person in a pit thread suggested he can tell if someone is white by last name. When we were on the playground as young kids, a person’s voice was a factor. Do economic factors play a role? I am in need of guidance on this, buddies. Race gets defined differently in different societies. Or different time periods. I’m reminded of the Rwandan massacres in the early 90’s. It was two groups of people who were of different ethnicity within their culture, but who would both be seen as “black” outside of their culture. I’m also thinking back to the early 20th century, when different groups of “white” people hated either other (Irish, Italians, for example). ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/26 "2018-07-11T16:47:31Z")
“Racialism”…is there a “Alt-Right Dictionary” somewhere that these kinds of terms leach out from (like slugs wriggling out of piles of garbage)? “Democrat Party”, “Social Justice Warrior”, etc., where the actual meaning (vs. surface) is a hidden in-joke? Please fight my ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/27 "2018-07-11T16:48:14Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Taxonomical definitions are notoriously difficult to structure precisely and accurately, and that’s when you’re dealing with physical objects (what’s a chair?) When it comes to sociological constructs, they’re damned near impossible to structure precisely and accurately. Are you unaware of this difficulty, or are you trying to score cheap points by acting like race is nonexistent due to the difficulty of defining it precisely and accurately? Neither. I don’t support the taxonomy. Others find it useful, apparently. If I found a taxonomy to be useful, I would be able to give an explanation for it. If i wanted to structure government policy around it, I could define it. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/28 "2018-07-11T16:50:32Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > The rest of your OP was rather confusing but I think you’re asking the almost the right question here. But instead of ‘white’ and ‘black’ you need to use ‘us’ and ‘not us’. And you need to ask why you are asking the question in the first place. Skin colour is irrelevant, as those in the former Yugoslavia would tell you, as would Rwandans, as would the Northern Irish, as would so many others. > > And the answer, I think, is that America has itself to blame: you Americans insist on people being XYZ-Americans rather than plain Americans. By doing so you are perpetuating the divisions. Instead of learning from the past you are perpetuating the mistakes of the past by implementing them in a new way. I agree, but many Americans find race to be deeply important and race-based policies perpetuate this. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/29 "2018-07-11T16:53:42Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And the answer, I think, is that America has itself to blame: you Americans insist on people being XYZ-Americans rather than plain Americans. By doing so you are perpetuating the divisions. Instead of learning from the past you are perpetuating the mistakes of the past by implementing them in a new way. This is very obviously false. The greatest atrocities of American history – slavery (a century of mass labor-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); treatment of the Native Americans (a century of mass land-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); and their successors, segregation, Jim Crow, red-lining, and similar policies/practices, came long before the concept of “XYZ-American” came about. Recognizing the differences in how so many Americans are treated by government, society, and institutions is a step in how we solve these mistreatments, not a step towards making them worse. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/30 "2018-07-11T16:55:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I want just policies and practices by society. If a group (racial or otherwise) isn’t being treated justly, on average, by institutions in society, then policies should be put into place to fix that. > > Whether this is true or not (and I’ve seen conflicting studies), it’s irrelevant to your consistent wrongness when trying to psychoanalyze the motivations of the liberals you hold in so much contempt. You are almost always wrong when you try to dig into the motivations of liberals/progressives/Democrats, and you should stop trying to do so. Rather, when you want to know what they/we think, just ask. Since you find race-based policies to be an effective bulwark against injustice, can you define what the races are for us? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/31 "2018-07-11T16:57:16Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > “Racialism”…is there a “Alt-Right Dictionary” somewhere that these kinds of terms leach out from (like slugs wriggling out of piles of garbage)? “Democrat Party”, “Social Justice Warrior”, etc., where the actual meaning (vs. surface) is a hidden in-joke? Please fight my ignorance. No, there’s an actual dictionary with the term “racialism” in it though. Crack one open sometime. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/32 "2018-07-11T17:03:21Z")
Another “Hating the haters is the _real_ hate!” argument? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/33 "2018-07-11T17:04:00Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who is white? LMGTFY? [White people - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people) Or maybe this is of those “is milk in cereal a broth, beverage, or sauce?” questions. Pop tarts are ravioli ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/34 "2018-07-11T17:06:08Z")
Axioms. 1. Unequal treatment by skin color exists. 2. The people who are being treated unequally know who they are and what group they are part of. 3. People who complain about unequal treatment are not in the same category as people who pretend there is no unequal treatment. 4. People who fight for equal treatment are not in the same category as bigots. See how easy it is to live in the real world? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/35 "2018-07-11T17:08:28Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Since you find race-based policies to be an effective bulwark against injustice I didn’t say this. Politics, especially politics and racism, are complicated enough that they usually can’t be summed up like this. > [@](#): > > , can you define what the races are for us? Here’s a decent start: [Race and ethnicity in the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ethnicity_in_the_United_States) It’s an extremely complicated mesh of history, culture, power, economics, geopolitics, and much more. Lots of great books (and lots of terrible ones) have been written on the subject. I don’t claim to be an expert, I just try to understand the best that I can. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/36 "2018-07-11T17:12:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Since you find race-based policies to be an effective bulwark against injustice, can you define what the races are for us? I don’t think I can precisely define “asshole” in the pejorative context, but I definitely know when when I see one. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/37 "2018-07-11T17:15:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is very obviously false. The greatest atrocities of American history – slavery (a century of mass labor-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); treatment of the Native Americans (a century of mass land-theft, brutality, torture, rape, and murder); and their successors, segregation, Jim Crow, red-lining, and similar policies/practices, came long before the concept of “XYZ-American” came about. You’re missing it. No one can dispute the past, but by using XYZ-American you are perpetuating them. You are perpetuating the divisions. Move on. You are **one** United States of America so be **one** group of Americans. Make Americans one group of Us, not one group of Us and a group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us etc. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/38 "2018-07-11T17:21:13Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Let’s be honest, I’m talking about the lower classes, who regard people on an individual basis rather than as members of a collective. When they talk in racial collective language it’s mostly harmless and they’re usually just joking around. IME, and in history’s, you are utterly wrong. The lower classes is precisely where the most virulent racism( and sectarianism )tends to concentrate, simply because they are the least economically secure and have the lowest social standing. Economically ‘the other’ is seen as a greater threat and socially having someone to look down on is psychologically comforting for many. > [@](#): > > You also have your moderates who support race-based policies like affirmative action. Your right of center moderates don’t talk race too much. As soon as you tick past that plumb-line into the Obamas, Bidens, and Clinton’s, we start hearing it. Another problem we’re going to have communicating is agreeing to a definition of _moderate_. Thinking of Obama, the Clintons or Biden as “leftists” just causes me to shake my head. They’re bog standard MOR Democrats, with the most glaring exception to that being on the other end of the spectrum with Hillary Clinton’s rather hawkish foreign policy. When we come from such disparate world views that definitions can’t be shared, it becomes really hard to discuss issues. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/39 "2018-07-11T17:25:55Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You’re missing it. No one can dispute the past, but by using XYZ-American you are perpetuating them. You are perpetuating the divisions. Move on. You are **one** United States of America so be **one** group of Americans. Make Americans one group of Us, not one group of Us and a group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us and another group of Not Us etc. No, this is incorrect. We can look at history and see this clearly. What perpetuated and exacerbated divisions was unjust and unequal treatment, by society, government, and institutions. What mitigated divisions was ending that unjust and unequal treatment. At no point in American history can we point to a great division (by race or otherwise) and say that the labels used were the cause of that division. It was always differing treatment, by government, society, and/or institutions, of various groups. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/40 "2018-07-11T17:27:21Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > I don’t think I can precisely define “asshole” in the pejorative context, but I definitely know when when I see one. This is both a failure of subtlety and a failure to mind which forum you are posting in. This isn’t the Pit. Knock it off. [/moderating] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=3)