# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/41 "2018-07-11T17:31:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, this is incorrect. We can look at history and see this clearly. What perpetuated and exacerbated divisions was unjust and unequal treatment, by society, government, and institutions. And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of … Be one united group of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/42 "2018-07-11T17:33:36Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Neither. I don’t support the taxonomy. Others find it useful, apparently. If I found a taxonomy to be useful, I would be able to give an explanation for it. If i wanted to structure government policy around it, I could define it. The taxonomy isn’t useful, but knowing it’s a sociological reality is useful. Ignoring sociological realities that have tremendous, sometimes fatal, effects on human lives is incredibly foolish. That doesn’t mean the taxonomy is good. Nor does it mean that it’s magically easy to define, unlike every other sociological taxonomy. ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/43 "2018-07-11T17:34:31Z")
How are you defining ‘lower classes’ anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/44 "2018-07-11T17:36:24Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > This is both a failure of subtlety and a failure to mind which forum you are posting in. This isn’t the Pit. Knock it off. > > [/moderating] Noted, but worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/45 "2018-07-11T17:36:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of … Be one united group of Americans. I tell you what, when people stop asking me where I’m “really” from I will stop including \*-American to remind my fellow citizens that I am actually an American too. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/46 "2018-07-11T17:37:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of … Be one united group of Americans. This is an absolutely wonderful idea. I’m amazed that nobody in history has ever thought of this before. But now that you’ve expressed it, surely everybody will immediately change their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/47 "2018-07-11T17:44:23Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. Not exactly. History is much more complicated. > [@](#): > > So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of … Be one united group of Americans. We’re working on it (some of us, anyway – others are trying to turn back the clock, or worse). That requires recognizing the many ways so many Americans are mistreated, which is often dictated by these groupings, so that these practices can be dismantled. What you advocate would make this impossible, and therefore make the dream of a single population of Americans, all treated equally by society, government, and institutions, impossible. ---
**Author:** ![akwally1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akwally1/32/3220_2.png) [@akwally1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akwally1)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/48 "2018-07-11T17:45:29Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > You are perpetuating the divisions. Move on. You are **one** United States of America so be **one** group of Americans. So this sounds to me (and my apologies if this isn’t your intent, it’s just a similar argument to one I’ve heard from some very racist relatives) like you’re saying that if the people of color and other minorities stopped thinking of themselves as separate from the “rest of America” (read white), then we’d all be Americans and nobody would be treated badly? If that is the argument, then shouldn’t you be making that argument to the people that are perpetuating the racism by treating POCs differently? If they (read white) would just stop seeing the black guy or mexican woman (or woman wearing a Puerto Rico shirt) as an “other”, and treating them poorly because of it, then they’d realize we’re all people living in the same country? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/49 "2018-07-11T17:57:51Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Before our conversation about “black” people and “white” people, should we not define the groups? I did give you a definition. But, as usual, you seem to be ignoring everything anyone is saying besides yourself. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I know racism exists. I just claimed racism is present throughout American society in case you missed it. I listed a few racist and racialist groups. My question is a simple one. Since the politically active want race-based policies, I think it is a fair question to ask. You seem to barely acknowledge it exists. And to the extent you do acknowledge its existence, you are disturbingly neutral in how you address it. According to your OP, different groups have different views on racism. Groups like the KKK, the neo-Nazis, and the White Nationalists are in favor of racism and support it. Groups like the Obamas, the Bidens, the Clintons, and other people you describe as leftists condemn racism and actively oppose it. And as far as can be told from your post, both positions are equally valid. And you seem to think open-minded people should reject both of these positions as being too extreme and adopt some middle position of neutrality towards racism. As I noted above, you apparently ignore what other people are saying. But I’ve already stated my opinion on that view: People support racism by not opposing it. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/50 "2018-07-11T17:58:33Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I agree, but many Americans find race to be deeply important and race-based policies perpetuate this. Hopefully, between the other thread in which you repeatedly posed tangential questions about race, and this thread that you created specifically to argue about race, we’ll figure out what the hell is up with these Americans who find race to be deeply important. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/51 "2018-07-11T18:05:44Z")
In my city, there’s been a nasty history of redlining. A business district that contained the lion’s share of black-owned businesses got bulldozed a few decades ago in order to make room for huge tourist hotels and other “urban revitalization projects”. One of the few non-public-housing neighborhoods that’s primarily black homes is probably going to be bulldozed in the next few years so the interstate can be widened. When schools were integrated, the black school was torn down, and its sports teams and band programs were discontinued. Partly as a result of these factors, and partly as a result of other factors, our city has a huge economic disparity between black and white residents. Our schools have one of the highest achievement gaps in the state. Debating who exactly is black is a ridiculous approach to these problems. Waving a magic wand to make everyone blind to race won’t solve any of the current problems caused by past injustice. If you’re running a marathon, and for the first ten miles you’ve had weights attached to each foot, and you watched other weight-free runners pass you by, will you consider the problem solved if after ten miles the weights are removed? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/52 "2018-07-11T18:10:28Z")
All I really needed to see was “racialism” in the thread title to know it was going to be well-poisoning and bullshit of the basest variety. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/53 "2018-07-11T18:10:35Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How are white people treated? > > How are black people treated? > > Who is doing the treating? There are many people treating a given individual. > > What if someone is treated badly, does that make him “black”? > > What if someone is treated well, does that make her “white”? You claim you know all about racism but then claim you need to have questions like this answered for you. You should decide on a single set of consistent claims. I’m not going to engage in an argument over the details. That’s just a tactic to divert attention away from the problem. The general principle is that black people and white people often get treated differently because of their race. People should not get treated differently because of their race. So we should work on moving from the current situation where people are treated differently to one where people are not treated differently because of their race. Talking about racism is good when it’s a prelude to doing something against racism. Talking about racism is bad when it’s an excuse to avoid doing something against racism. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/54 "2018-07-11T18:31:09Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you deny that liberals want race-based policies and consider racial diversity to be a goal of policy? If so, maybe I am misunderstanding the position and you can clarify the liberal position on race. That wasn’t addressed to me but I’ll answer it. The goal of liberals is not to have race-based politics. The goal of liberals is for racism to not exist and for actions against racism to be unnecessary. But until that goal is achieved, liberals are going to use the tools that work against racism. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Can we have a definition of “white person” that does not include the term “white person”? Racism is irrational. It’s not based on rational beliefs. So you’re not going to find a rational objective standard defining what racists believe. Pretending we need to find a rational basis for racism before we can oppose racism is at best misguided. At worst, it is an intentional delaying tactic to defend racism by insisting on unobtainable prerequisites before it can be opposed. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/55 "2018-07-11T18:43:04Z")
> [@akwally1](#): > > So this sounds to me (and my apologies if this isn’t your intent, it’s just a similar argument to one I’ve heard from some very racist relatives) like you’re saying that if the people of color and other minorities stopped thinking of themselves as separate from the “rest of America” (read white), then we’d all be Americans and nobody would be treated badly? Not at all. If an American - no matter the colour of their skin, no matter their creed, no matter their sex or sexuality - calls him- or herself or someone else a XYZ-American, it is that American who is perpetuating the problem. Take a look at your passport: it doesn’t say that you’re a XYZ-American, does it? Nope, it says that you’re American (that is, a citizen of the United States of America). Don’t get me wrong. I know that racism is a well-attested problem in America and is not going to be cured quickly or easily, but by using groupings you encourage division and from division comes discrimination and from discrimination come racism and sexism and religious intolerance and so on. I’m not surprised you’re not grokking it. The divisions seem to be ingrained in American culture. I remember a story about Sir Lenny Henry - who is far more eloquent than myself - having a related trouble with an American interviewer. The interviewer simply couldn’t understand that he was first and foremost a British comedian and actor who just happened to be black - the interviewer insisted on ‘African-American’ which is dudley wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/56 "2018-07-11T19:01:24Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Don’t get me wrong. I know that racism is a well-attested problem in America and is not going to be cured quickly or easily, but by using groupings you encourage division and from division comes discrimination and from discrimination come racism and sexism and religious intolerance and so on. Why don’t you use your superior cosmopolitan expertise and name for us all of the countries which do not use groupings and therefore do not have “racism and sexism and religious intolerance and so on.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/57 "2018-07-11T19:05:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Not at all. If an American - no matter the colour of their skin, no matter their creed, no matter their sex or sexuality - calls him- or herself or someone else a XYZ-American, it is that American who is perpetuating the problem. This is so ridiculous. If someone has been mugged, and they talk about the dangers of mugging, they’re not perpetuating street crime. If someone has been discriminated against because of their perceived race, and they talk about their perceived race, they’re not perpetuating racism. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/58 "2018-07-11T20:24:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I did give you a definition. But, as usual, you seem to be ignoring everything anyone is saying besides yourself. > You seem to barely acknowledge it exists. And to the extent you do acknowledge its existence, you are disturbingly neutral in how you address it. > > According to your OP, different groups have different views on racism. Groups like the KKK, the neo-Nazis, and the White Nationalists are in favor of racism and support it. Groups like the Obamas, the Bidens, the Clintons, and other people you describe as leftists condemn racism and actively oppose it. And as far as can be told from your post, both positions are equally valid. And you seem to think open-minded people should reject both of these positions as being too extreme and adopt some middle position of neutrality towards racism. > > As I noted above, you apparently ignore what other people are saying. But I’ve already stated my opinion on that view: People support racism by not opposing it. I will respond again to your tautological definition. You claim that white people are treated like white people and black people are treated like black people. How do you treat black people? How do you treat white people? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/59 "2018-07-11T20:28:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That wasn’t addressed to me but I’ll answer it. The goal of liberals is not to have race-based politics. The goal of liberals is for racism to not exist and for actions against racism to be unnecessary. But until that goal is achieved, liberals are going to use the tools that work against racism. Are one of those tools advocacy for race-based policies? > [@](#): > > Racism is irrational. It’s not based on rational beliefs. So you’re not going to find a rational objective standard defining what racists believe. So you admit that race-based policies are not rational? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2018, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/60 "2018-07-11T20:29:05Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of … Be one united group of Americans. “Why do you think the attacked your mosque?” “Because we are Americans!” :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=4)