# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/601 "2018-07-26T15:28:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The idea that something so complicated can be ameliorated by national legislation that lacks any nuance at all, and makes blanket claims about which massive groups experience discrimination, is quite naive. Its complex enough that you can’t really pin any of the responsibility on the people whose behavior is causing problems, but its also simple enough that a melanin based policy will help solve it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/602 "2018-07-26T15:31:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Not being wilfully blind” is hardly what I’d characterise as an indicator of an aspect of the problem, no. > > I mean, just look at the current American government and its policies, and tell me it’s _not_ driven by “those who hate”. These issues predate 2016. Was Obama also one of “those who hate?” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/603 "2018-07-26T15:35:41Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Please answer with the multiple choices provided. That is a silly request. Here is an extreme example of why it is silly. Do you: A) enjoy having sex with zebras and wildebeasts B) only enjoy having sex with wildebeasts C) only enjoy having sex with zebras D) no longer enjoy sex with either but continue to do so out of habit Please answer with the multiple choices provided. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/604 "2018-07-26T15:59:15Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > How bureaucratic is the insistence on mindless forms and trouble with comprehension beyond that. Well, if we’re throwing around accusations of what is mindless, I think trying to negate the existence of widespread racial discrimination in our society by seeking a way to exclude people from being considered part of a racial minority is pretty dumb. And offensive. Person A: “I was rejected from this job because I was black.” You: “You need to take a blood test to determine your race before I consider whether you were discriminated against.” ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/605 "2018-07-26T16:00:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > That is a silly request. Here is an extreme example of why it is silly. > > Do you: > > A) enjoy having sex with zebras and wildebeasts > > B) only enjoy having sex with wildebeasts > > C) only enjoy having sex with zebras > > D) no longer enjoy sex with either but continue to do so out of habit > > Please answer with the multiple choices provided. Were those options written by a reputable polling company? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/606 "2018-07-26T16:05:59Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > No, your friends and family are NOT typical. Well educated black folks are not where the problem is. I guess the particular toxic elements I am talking about are most prevalent in communities that are predominantly black and poor. > > I see a level of contempt for women that is not that common in other poor communities. There is a vilification and slander of black women, they’re “hoes and bitches” I think this can lead to men being less concerned about pregnancy because they don’t really bear most of the burden of pregnancy. Especially if it is socially acceptable to abandon a woman that is pregnant with your child. > > I understand that black people can endearingly refer to each other as niggahs. But I also hear black men them derisively, contemptuously and hatefully referring to other black men as niggers. I don’t see this sort of racist slur being used by other ethnic communities quite as much. I don’t think I’ve ever heard any asian yell “I’m gonna kill you, chink” at another asian during a heated argument. > > I see a “school is for fools” attitude in the black community that is not present in other poor communities. I see persecution and mockery of studious black boys that I don’t see in other communities. Erkel is unattractive and dorky but that is supposed to be funny, if you portrayed an asian that way, other asians would be offended at the stereotype. They would be offended at the stereotype that studious Asians are also dorky and unattractive. It is a problem throughout the nation but is particularly acute in black communities. Just as a point of reference, the most popular kids in schools in many parts of Asia are often the ones with the best grades, not money, not athletic ability, not beauty, grades. > > I see a level of glorification of violence and criminality in ganster rap that isn’t just there for entertainment value (like it is for the white kids that listen to this stuff in the suburbs). This might merely be a reflection of facts on the ground but there is a evidence that the culture of ganster rap promotes more violence. It glorifies gangs and gang violence in unconstructive ways. > > Being a baby daddy does not seem as shameful in the black community as it is in other poor communities. I don’t know how the fuck this sort of dynamic develops and perhaps the absence of fathers based on incarceration made it more acceptable even for fathers that were NOT in jail but that’s fucked up and excusing that sort of behavior because “its complex” is not helping. Not only does this appear to be a series of uninformed and overly-simplistic judgments from an outsider based on stereotypes (seriously – this sounds like Rush Limbaugh pontificating about black people in America), it doesn’t answer my question. What part of the culture of these members of my family and friends is “toxic”? If the answer is “nothing”, then are they not authentically black? Is their culture not black? What are the specific cultural practices in “black culture” as a whole that are bad? And why is “black culture” as a whole, which encompasses the culture of many of my family and friends, and the culture of Prince George’s County MD, to blame, rather than specific sub-cultures with much higher levels of these behaviors – say, “inner city gang culture”? If you’re going to take on the impossible (and usually counterproductive) task of critiquing a marginalized culture from the outside, you might as well be accurate, focused, and specific about it. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I agree. If that’s what I said, it would be nuts. > > What I actually said is that I don’t think there are circumstances in the real world that can result in the ridiculously high levels of negative behaviours. > > Sure there are circumstances that can lead to higher illegitimacy rates. What circumstances do you believe lead to a 70% illegitimacy rate? > > Sure there are circumstances that can lead to fathers abandoning their children. What circumstance do you believe is leading to 70% of black children being raised in homes without fathers? > > Its not the fact that illegitimacy and absentee fathers exist in the black community. Its the fact that they constitute 70% of the community. I have no doubt that things would start to improve within a few generations if we had illegitimacy rates below 10% and absentee fathers below 10%, do you? We’re talking disparities. White people, on average, have a high illegitimacy rate. Black people, on average, have a higher illegitimacy rate. There are tons of intersecting circumstances that could cause this, unrelated to culture. If more black men are being unjustly hassled by police, brutalized, prosecuted, and convicted, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men are traumatized by institutions in society, and such trauma is more likely to result in a human being of any culture taking risky and irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men are marginalized in school due to racist policies and practices, and inferior education results in a greater likelihood of a human being of any culture taking risky or irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men lose fathers and brothers to institutional violence and social unrest, and losing fathers and brothers makes human beings of any culture more likely to take risky or irresponsible actions, then black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. There are countless more such possibilities. Whatever’s resulting in illegitimacy in white communities might just be more common in black communities, unrelated to culture. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So you think we can dismiss racism as well because its complex. At least its a consistent position. I don’t plan to dismiss racism at all. If you want to, that’s your decision, and you’re free to do so. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/607 "2018-07-26T16:38:50Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > These issues predate 2016. Which issues would those be, exactly? Just so I’m sure we’re talking about the same thing. > [@](#): > > Was Obama also one of “those who hate?” No. But most of the Republican congress that stymied him at every turn \*definitely \*were. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/608 "2018-07-26T16:39:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’re talking disparities. White people, on average, have a high illegitimacy rate. Black people, on average, have a higher illegitimacy rate. There are tons of intersecting circumstances that could cause this, unrelated to culture. If more black men are being unjustly hassled by police, brutalized, prosecuted, and convicted, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men are traumatized by institutions in society, and such trauma is more likely to result in a human being of any culture taking risky and irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men are marginalized in school due to racist policies and practices, and inferior education results in a greater likelihood of a human being of any culture taking risky or irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men lose fathers and brothers to institutional violence and social unrest, and losing fathers and brothers makes human beings of any culture more likely to take risky or irresponsible actions, then black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. There are countless more such possibilities. That’s pretty good analysis. But you’ve failed to connect the line between the instances of hassling, traumatizing, and marginalization suffered by black men in America today to why this results in black women not using contraceptives. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/609 "2018-07-26T16:47:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’re talking disparities. White people, on average, have a high illegitimacy rate. Black people, on average, have a higher illegitimacy rate. There are tons of intersecting circumstances that could cause this, unrelated to culture. If more black men are being unjustly hassled by police, brutalized, prosecuted, and convicted, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men are traumatized by institutions in society, and such trauma is more likely to result in a human being of any culture taking risky and irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men are marginalized in school due to racist policies and practices, and inferior education results in a greater likelihood of a human being of any culture taking risky or irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men lose fathers and brothers to institutional violence and social unrest, and losing fathers and brothers makes human beings of any culture more likely to take risky or irresponsible actions, then black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. There are countless more such possibilities. > > Whatever’s resulting in illegitimacy in white communities might just be more common in black communities, unrelated to culture. Just to clarify - you aren’t actually asserting any of this as true, correct? That is, you aren’t going to back it up, or show causation, or anything like that. So you aren’t going to “be specific”, but you think we should be. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/610 "2018-07-26T16:49:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s pretty good analysis. But you’ve failed to connect the line between the instances of hassling, traumatizing, and marginalization suffered by black men in America today to why this results in black women not using contraceptives. There may be similar circumstances affecting black women. Further, contraception decisions involve two people, not just one. If one of those two is more likely to push for a risky decision, based on other circumstances, then risky decisions might be more likely in general for couples of the affected group. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/611 "2018-07-26T16:50:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Further, contraception decisions involve two people, not just one. No they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/612 "2018-07-26T16:52:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No they don’t. Outside of rape or deception, yes they do. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/613 "2018-07-26T16:52:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just to clarify - you aren’t actually asserting any of this as true, correct? That is, you aren’t going to back it up, or show causation, or anything like that. > > So you aren’t going to “be specific”, but you think we should be. > > Regards, > Shodan I believe that lots of convincing evidence has been presented, in this thread and others, for bias in the education system, the justice system, and other institutions, that would result in the circumstances I’ve listed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/614 "2018-07-26T16:54:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No they don’t. Are you talking about a specific method, or contraception in general? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/615 "2018-07-26T16:56:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Outside of rape or deception, yes they do. Really? Who do I need to consult on my policy of always using a condom? Who does a women need to consult on whether or not she takes the pill? Who does a women need to consult on whether or not she gets an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/616 "2018-07-26T17:00:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Really? Who do I need to consult on my policy of always using a condom? > > Who does a women need to consult on whether or not she takes the pill? > > Who does a women need to consult on whether or not she gets an abortion? The answer to all three: Your sexual partner. If your sexual partner does not wish to have sex with you because you decide to(or decide not to) use contraceptives, then(outside of rape or deception) you don’t get to have sex. Edited to add: As far as an abortion is concerned, that has nothing to do with whether sex occurs-that deals with what happens afterwards…unless you are claiming that abortion is a form of contraception. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/617 "2018-07-26T17:00:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, if we’re throwing around accusations of what is mindless, I think trying to negate the existence of widespread racial discrimination in our society by seeking a way to exclude people from being considered part of a racial minority is pretty dumb. And offensive. > > Person A: “I was rejected from this job because I was black.” > You: “You need to take a blood test to determine your race before I consider whether you were discriminated against.” Yes that would be mindless. How about you keep coming up with mindless stuff, I’m no good at it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/618 "2018-07-26T17:00:25Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Really? Who do I need to consult on my policy of always using a condom? > > Who does a women need to consult on whether or not she takes the pill? > > Who does a women need to consult on whether or not she gets an abortion? We’re talking about likelihoods among large groups. If two groups of women are completely identical, and one of those groups usually has intimate relations with men from group A, who are more likely to take risky and irresponsible action, and the other group of women usually has intimate relations with men from group B, who are less likely to take risky and irresponsible action, then overall, the first group of women will be more likely to engage in risky or irresponsible intimate behavior, even though they’re exactly the same as the other group of women aside from the group they happen to usually have intimate encounters with. Because decisions with couples usually involve some measure of give and take. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/619 "2018-07-26T17:02:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not only does this appear to be a series of uninformed and overly-simplistic judgments from an outsider based on stereotypes (seriously – this sounds like Rush Limbaugh pontificating about black people in America), it doesn’t answer my question. What part of the culture of these members of my family and friends is “toxic”? If the answer is “nothing”, then are they not authentically black? Is their culture not black? What are the specific cultural practices in “black culture” as a whole that are bad? And why is “black culture” as a whole, which encompasses the culture of many of my family and friends, and the culture of Prince George’s County MD, to blame, rather than specific sub-cultures with much higher levels of these behaviors – say, “inner city gang culture”? Is there such a thing as black culture? Is your point is that there is not and it is all a bunch of subcultures and you are objecting to my failure to more specifically identify the subculture to which 70% of black children are born? > [@](#): > > If you’re going to take on the impossible (and usually counterproductive) task of critiquing a marginalized culture from the outside, you might as well be accurate, focused, and specific about it. I am not sure how much more specific I can get that identify the specific use of words that I think are a problem, the specific form of music that I think is a problem, the specific criminal activity, I don’t know how much more specific I can get without naming every black person individually and making an assessment of each of them at the individual level. > [@](#): > > We’re talking disparities. White people, on average, have a high illegitimacy rate. Black people, on average, have a higher illegitimacy rate. There are tons of intersecting circumstances that could cause this, unrelated to culture. If more black men are being unjustly hassled by police, brutalized, prosecuted, and convicted, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. Once again, what percentage of black men do you think are in jail? 70% of black children are raised in single parent households. Incarceration of black men doesn’t even come close to explaining away those fairly large differences. > [@](#): > > If more black men are traumatized by institutions in society, and such trauma is more likely to result in a human being of any culture taking risky and irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. > > If more black men are marginalized in school due to racist policies and practices, and inferior education results in a greater likelihood of a human being of any culture taking risky or irresponsible actions, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. If more black men lose fathers and brothers to institutional violence and social unrest, and losing fathers and brothers makes human beings of any culture more likely to take risky or irresponsible actions, then black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. There are countless more such possibilities. > > Whatever’s resulting in illegitimacy in white communities might just be more common in black communities, unrelated to culture. So if that were the case, you might expect a higher overall birth rate in the black community. If that was what was driving the illegitimacy rate then you would think that a 70% illegitimacy rate might mean a MUCH higher birth rate. And yet Asians have a higher birth rate than blacks and an illegitimacy rate significantly lower than blacks. Same with teen pregnancy. A significantly lower teen pregnancy rate but a higher overall birthrate. BTW, you know that procreation requires two people right? > [@](#): > > I don’t plan to dismiss racism at all. If you want to, that’s your decision, and you’re free to do so. I don’t dismiss racism. I also don’t accept it as a universal explanation for every bad thing that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/620 "2018-07-26T17:03:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Were those options written by a reputable polling company? Why does that matter? If the options you presented are insufficient then they are insufficient and its pretty silly to demand that he pick and option that he doesn’t agree with because they are the only options available. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=32)