# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/621 "2018-07-26T17:03:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The answer to all three: Your sexual partner. If your sexual partner does not wish to have sex with you because you decide to(or decide not to) use contraceptives, then(outside of rape or deception) you don’t get to have sex. I am under no obligation to inform my sexual partner that I have had a vasectomy. A women is under no obligation to inform her sexual partner that she is on birth control. A women is under no obligation to inform her sexual partner that she is going to/has had an abortion. I, and the woman, make these decisions on our own, without consulting with anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/622 "2018-07-26T17:07:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I am under no obligation to inform my sexual partner that I have had a vasectomy. > > A women is under no obligation to inform her sexual partner that she is on birth control. > > A women is under no obligation to inform her sexual partner that she is going to/has had an abortion. > > I, and the woman, make these decisions on our own, without consulting with anybody. If asked, is it o.k. to lie? Also(and again) is it your position that abortion is a form of contraception? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/623 "2018-07-26T17:07:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We’re talking about likelihoods among large groups. If two groups of women are completely identical, and one of those groups usually has intimate relations with men from group A, who are more likely to take risky and irresponsible action, and the other group of women usually has intimate relations with men from group B, who are less likely to take risky and irresponsible action, then overall, the first group of women will be more likely to engage in risky or irresponsible intimate behavior, even though they’re exactly the same as the other group of women aside from the group they happen to usually have intimate encounters with. Because decisions with couples usually involve some measure of give and take. 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. 70% ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/624 "2018-07-26T17:09:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. 70% Under what definition of “black”? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/625 "2018-07-26T17:09:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Why does that matter? > > If the options you presented are insufficient then they are insufficient and its pretty silly to demand that he pick and option that he doesn’t agree with because they are the only options available. I think the answers can only be considered insufficient if one is embarrassed to answer them and needs to come up with a reason why they want to avoid doing so. Your “poll” however is truly a pile of bullshit, which I think you acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/626 "2018-07-26T17:11:52Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If asked, is it o.k. to lie? > Also(and again) is it your position that abortion is a form of contraception? I don’t recommend lying, no. But the decision has already been made. The statement was “contraception decisions involve two people” And no, they do not involve two people. As I have shown. And without getting into a big long discussion about it, sure, I would consider abortion a form of contraception. If people who study that type of thing don’t, then fine. I’m not married to that consideration or anything. And also, I didn’t see your edited question after I read your post, so a sly “(and again)” isn’t necessary. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/627 "2018-07-26T17:12:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Is there such a thing as black culture? > > Is your point is that there is not and it is all a bunch of subcultures and you are objecting to my failure to more specifically identify the subculture to which 70% of black children are born? > [@](#): > > Once again, what percentage of black men do you think are in jail? 70% of black children are raised in single parent households. Incarceration of black men doesn’t even come close to explaining away those fairly large differences. > > So if that were the case, you might expect a higher overall birth rate in the black community. If that was what was driving the illegitimacy rate then you would think that a 70% illegitimacy rate might mean a MUCH higher birth rate. And yet Asians have a higher birth rate than blacks and an illegitimacy rate significantly lower than blacks. > > Same with teen pregnancy. A significantly lower teen pregnancy rate but a higher overall birthrate. Why are you focusing on the gross number? I thought it was the disparity that was “toxic”. The actual disparity isn’t nearly so large. And if we completely control for economics (i.e. compare poor black people only to poor white people, and so on), the disparity still exists, but is much smaller. When you consider that we’re talking about disparities in these statistics, and disparities in how people are treated broadly, then it seems pretty clear to me that relatively modest levels of differences in how people are treated could result in these relatively modest disparities in these statistics. > [@](#): > > I am not sure how much more specific I can get that identify the specific use of words that I think are a problem, the specific form of music that I think is a problem, the specific criminal activity, I don’t know how much more specific I can get without naming every black person individually and making an assessment of each of them at the individual level. You could try to do more than a Rush Limbaugh-style stereotype-based analysis. You didn’t recite a litany of broad facts about a large community or culture – you recited a litany of feelings about black culture, or stuff you’ve heard from others about black people, or anecdotes that you might have witnessed. > [@](#): > > I don’t dismiss racism. I also don’t accept it as a universal explanation for every bad thing that happens. Neither do I. Complex world, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/628 "2018-07-26T17:13:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe that lots of convincing evidence has been presented, in this thread and others, for bias in the education system, the justice system, and other institutions, that would result in the circumstances I’ve listed. You believe wrongly. Every time you were asked for specifics, like why blacks have condoms less available to them due to racism, or whiteness/blackness, or “the system”, you declined to address the question. It’s not too late. > [@](#): > > If more black men are being unjustly hassled by police, brutalized, prosecuted, and convicted, then that means black illegitimacy will be higher, unrelated to culture. Feel free to explain how being convicted and sent to prison causes black men and women who aren’t in prison to not use condoms. Please be specific. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/629 "2018-07-26T17:16:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > 70% of black babies are born out of wedlock. 70% Question for you, if you were born of a stable two parent household, do you think that the chances that you, yourself, would establish a stable two parent household would be higher or lower than if you were born out of wedlock? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/630 "2018-07-26T17:22:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You believe wrongly. Every time you were asked for specifics, like why blacks have condoms less available to them due to racism, or whiteness/blackness, or “the system”, you declined to address the question. > > It’s not too late. Feel free to explain how being convicted and sent to prison causes black men and women who aren’t in prison to not use condoms. > > Please be specific. > > Regards, > Shodan Many, many links have been offered, in this thread and others. We’ve personally discussed this and related issues many times. As far as what I’ve actually said (if I can try and finagle which of my actual statements you’re mischaracterizing above) – if black men are more likely to be in prison due to bias in the system, then that means fewer will be available to parent. Do you need a cite that it’s hard to be available as a father if you’re in prison? The person I’m actually discussing this with – **DA** – agrees with most of my assertions about bias in the system, if I understand him correctly. He just doesn’t agree that these biases can cause these disparities in statistics. He and I are having a lovely conversation on this very topic, in fact, and hopefully you’re finding it as interesting as I am. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/631 "2018-07-26T17:23:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Which issues would those be, exactly? Just so I’m sure we’re talking about the same thing. > No. But most of the Republican congress that stymied him at every turn \*definitely \*were. WTF do you think we’ve been talking about so far? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/632 "2018-07-26T17:24:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Under what definition of “black”? Oh fercrissakes. The one the CDC uses. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/633 "2018-07-26T17:26:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Oh fercrissakes. > > The one the CDC uses. Works for me. Anyone else have a problem with this definition? If not, then we can put that oft-repeated question about what is “black” to rest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/634 "2018-07-26T17:30:38Z")
Some interesting facts about out-of-wedlock births: The birth rate for unmarried black women has been declining for almost 40 years. The birth rate for married black women has been declining even faster. The birth rate for unmarried women in general has been rising, but this is driven by rising birth rates among unmarried white and Hispanic women: [The math on Black out of wedlock births - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2009/02/the-math-on-black-out-of-wedlock-births/6738/) The facts say that significantly fewer unmarried black women are having babies than before. That’s a good thing, right? That even fewer married black women are having babies might be troubling, but that’s an entirely different issue. Further, the birthrate for black women overall is the lowest on record (as of 2013, at least): > **[Understanding Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/)** > > Revisiting the controversial Moynihan Report Whatever is occurring in the black community over the last several decades has been causing _fewer unmarried black women to have babies_. That’s a fact. There have been even steeper drops in the birth rate for married black women. These are interesting facts. I see no evidence that there’s something “toxic” in black culture that is resulting in fewer unmarried black women to have babies in the present than in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/635 "2018-07-26T17:33:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Some interesting facts about out-of-wedlock births: > > The birth rate for unmarried black women has been declining for almost 40 years. The birth rate for married black women has been declining even faster. The birth rate for unmarried women in general has been rising, but this is driven by rising birth rates among unmarried white and Hispanic women: [The math on Black out of wedlock births - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2009/02/the-math-on-black-out-of-wedlock-births/6738/) > > The facts say that significantly fewer unmarried black women are having babies than before. That’s a good thing, right? That even fewer married black women are having babies might be troubling, but that’s an entirely different issue. > > Further, the birthrate for black women overall is the lowest on record (as of 2013, at least): > > [Understanding Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/) > > Whatever is occurring in the black community over the last several decades has been causing _fewer unmarried black women to have babies_. That’s a fact. There have been even steeper drops in the birth rate for married black women. > > These are interesting facts. I see no evidence that there’s something “toxic” in black culture that is resulting in fewer unmarried black women to have babies in the present than in the past. I blame racialism! ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/636 "2018-07-26T17:35:55Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You could try to do more than a Rush Limbaugh-style stereotype-based analysis. You didn’t recite a litany of broad facts about a large community or culture – you recited a litany of feelings about black culture, or stuff you’ve heard from others about black people, or anecdotes that you might have witnessed. So what did I say that was incorrect? > [@](#): > > Neither do I. Complex world, isn’t it? Some things are. Sending the space shuttle to another galaxy isn’t as complex as you think the dynamics that lead to the 70% illegitimacy rate among blacks ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/637 "2018-07-26T17:36:01Z")
> **[Understanding Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/)** > > Revisiting the controversial Moynihan Report As of 2009, the US birth rate (i.e. how many of these women had babies per group of 1000) for unmarried white women was roughly 30. As of 2009, the birth rate for unmarried black women was roughly 55. That’s uncorrected for economics – just raw numbers. That’s not a huge disparity, considering these are births per 1000 women. If we corrected for economics, it would be even smaller. These are not giant disparities. If someone says that black women are having relatively overwhelmingly larger numbers of out-of-wedlock births than white women, then they’re saying something incorrect. There is a disparity, but it is not that large. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/638 "2018-07-26T17:38:48Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Question for you, if you were born of a stable two parent household, do you think that the chances that you, yourself, would establish a stable two parent household would be higher or lower than if you were born out of wedlock? Probably higher. Do you think there is anything a community or culture can do to make that illegitimacy more or less likely? Its not like illegitimacy in the black community was always at 70%. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/639 "2018-07-26T17:38:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So what did I say that was incorrect? When applied in a general way to a community of millions, all of it. It was a bunch of “it seems to me that these people are doing bad things” statements, but applied to millions. Almost identical to what I hear from Rush Limbaugh when he decides it’s time to shit on black people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/640 "2018-07-26T17:40:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Its not like illegitimacy in the black community was always at 70%. Once again, the number of unmarried black women having babies has been declining for most of the last 40 years. This is a fact. Whatever numbers you’re looking at are seriously twisting your understanding of the facts. The disparity is relatively small, when looking at the actual numbers of women having babies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=33)