# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/641 "2018-07-26T18:31:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > As far as what I’ve actually said (if I can try and finagle which of my actual statements you’re mischaracterizing above) – if black men are more likely to be in prison due to bias in the system, then that means fewer will be available to parent. Do you need a cite that it’s hard to be available as a father if you’re in prison? No, I need a cite that men in prison impregnate more women illegitimately. Or, specifically, that the black men in prison are responsible for the 70% illegitimacy rate among blacks in the US. > [@](#): > > The person I’m actually discussing this with – DA – agrees with most of my assertions about bias in the system, if I understand him correctly. He just doesn’t agree that these biases can cause these disparities in statistics. That’s the part where you are falling short. Every time you are asked, specifically, how the biases you allege cause the illegitimacy rate, or the disproportionate crime rate, or the de-emphasis on educational achievement, you brush it off and obfuscate. Again - how, **specifically** , does racism, or racialism, or whiteness/blackness, or “the system”, make condoms less available to blacks than to Asians, or Jews, or whites, or Hispanics? > [@](#): > > Whatever numbers you’re looking at are seriously twisting your understanding of the facts. The disparity is relatively small, when looking at the actual numbers of women having babies. More than 72% of all black children in the United States are born out of wedlock. [That is a fact](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/). Among white, it is roughly 30%. That is also a fact. Among Asians, it is about 17% - also a fact. The disparity is not relatively small, it is quite large. How does racism/blackness/whiteness/black men in prison/black people can’t get hold of a condom/whatever cause this? Be specific. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/642 "2018-07-26T18:38:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Again - how, **specifically** , does racism, or racialism, or whiteness/blackness, or “the system”, make condoms less available to blacks than to Asians, or Jews, or whites, or Hispanics? I think he gave an answer to this above, in post 618, which, if I am reading it right, women who are intimate with guys that are more likely to take risky and irresponsible actions are they themselves prone to risky and irresponsible actions, like not using birth control. Not that I necessarily agree, but it is an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/643 "2018-07-26T18:44:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I need a cite that men in prison impregnate more women illegitimately. Or, specifically, that the black men in prison are responsible for the 70% illegitimacy rate among blacks in the US. That’s the part where you are falling short. Every time you are asked, specifically, how the biases you allege cause the illegitimacy rate, or the disproportionate crime rate, or the de-emphasis on educational achievement, you brush it off and obfuscate. > > Again - how, **specifically** , does racism, or racialism, or whiteness/blackness, or “the system”, make condoms less available to blacks than to Asians, or Jews, or whites, or Hispanics? > > More than 72% of all black children in the United States are born out of wedlock. [That is a fact](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/). Among white, it is roughly 30%. That is also a fact. Among Asians, it is about 17% - also a fact. > > The disparity is not relatively small, it is quite large. > > How does racism/blackness/whiteness/black men in prison/black people can’t get hold of a condom/whatever cause this? > > Be specific. > > Regards, > Shodan This is the primary difference between structuralists and culturalists. Culturalists allow that there may be stuctures in place that makes life harder for minorities but think that culture is larger determinant of the racial dsparities. Structuralists generally don’t allow that culture has very much to do with anything. Its all structural. So for example a structuralist might say that Asian success is primarily due to the higher level of education among Asian immigrants and the difficulties that we see in social mobility within the black community is primarily due to racism. The culturalist would say that Asian success is largely due to a greater reverence for education, more sacrifices made for education, and more studying, as elements of culture and the black underachievement in academics is the result of a lower value placed on education, reluctance to make large sacrifices for education, and less studying, all driven by their community standards and culture. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/644 "2018-07-26T18:44:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I need a cite that men in prison impregnate more women illegitimately. Or, specifically, that the black men in prison are responsible for the 70% illegitimacy rate among blacks in the US. That’s the part where you are falling short. Every time you are asked, specifically, how the biases you allege cause the illegitimacy rate, or the disproportionate crime rate, or the de-emphasis on educational achievement, you brush it off and obfuscate. Probably because I didn’t make that specific claim (any claim I made about black men in prison was about availability for parenting). If I posted something that you think is that claim, then I either misposted or you are mischaracterizing it. I do not agree with the claim that “black men in prison are responsible for the illegitimacy rate among blacks”. If I confused this issue with the parenting issue, then I made a mistake. If I made such a mistake, I deeply apologize, and hopefully we can move on to the actual interesting disagreements and facts behind them: > [@](#): > > More than 72% of all black children in the United States are born out of wedlock. [That is a fact](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/jul/29/don-lemon/cnns-don-lemon-says-more-72-percent-african-americ/). Among white, it is roughly 30%. That is also a fact. Among Asians, it is about 17% - also a fact. > > The disparity is not relatively small, it is quite large. This is a % disparity in some other measure. It’s quite deceptive as compared to the the actual numbers of women who have babies: > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > [Understanding Out-of-Wedlock Births in Black America - The Atlantic](https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/06/understanding-out-of-wedlock-births-in-black-america/277084/) > > As of 2009, the US birth rate (i.e. how many of these women had babies per group of 1000) for unmarried white women was roughly 30. As of 2009, the birth rate for unmarried black women was roughly 55. That’s uncorrected for economics – just raw numbers. That’s not a huge disparity, considering these are births per 1000 women. If we corrected for economics, it would be even smaller. > > These are not giant disparities. If someone says that black women are having relatively overwhelmingly larger numbers of out-of-wedlock births than white women, then they’re saying something incorrect. There is a disparity, but it is not that large. The actual numbers of women having babies show that the relative number of unmarried black women having babies is only a bit higher than the relative number of unmarried white women having babies. By that link, about 3% of unmarried white women had babies in 2009. About 5.5% of unmarried black women had babies in 2009. That’s not a large disparity. Again, that’s looking at the actual numbers of unmarried women, per 1000, for both white and black women, having babies, and that disparity is rather small. Further, the birth rate for unmarried black women has been going down for the last 40 years. So whatever is causing it, this issue is getting better. Fewer unmarried black women are having babies, year after year, than before. These are facts, from the actual numbers of women having babies. The disparity in the actual number of births from unmarried black and white women is relatively small. And the birth rate for unmarried black women has been going down for decades. These should be numbers to celebrate. These are good things, right? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/645 "2018-07-26T18:52:55Z")
Again – according to the data in the link I posted, in 2009, 3% of unmarried white women gave birth. In 2009, 5.5% of unmarried black women gave birth. That is a disparity, but I think it can quite reasonably be characterized as a small disparity. If we corrected for economics, it would be even smaller. Further, the birth rate for those unmarried black women has been going down for decades. If there is a cultural issue causing this, whatever it is _has been getting better for decades_. And if there is a systemic problem due to various biases causing this, that systemic problem has been improving. Whatever the issue is that’s causing higher rates of unmarried black women to give birth as compared to unmarried white women, it has been improving for decades. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/646 "2018-07-26T18:59:21Z")
Okay, I think I see why those numbers seem so different. Fewer unmarried black women have been giving birth, but the birth rate for married black women has been going down even faster. So there’s something very good happening – year after year, fewer unmarried black women are having babies. There’s also another thing happening – way fewer married black women are having babies. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. But when those two circumstances are combined, they give that deceptive 70% or whatever, comparing the unmarried to the married births, which gives the incorrect impression that way more unmarried black women than unmarried white women are giving birth. The truth is, only about 2.5% more unmarried black women gave birth (in 2009, at least) than unmarried white women – 5.5% as compared to 3%, relatively speaking. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/647 "2018-07-26T19:04:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Okay, I think I see why those numbers seem so different. Fewer unmarried black women have been giving birth, but the birth rate for married black women has been going down even faster. So there’s something very good happening – year after year, fewer unmarried black women are having babies. There’s also another thing happening – way fewer married black women are having babies. I don’t know if that’s good or bad. But when those two circumstances are combined, they give that deceptive 70% or whatever, comparing the unmarried to the married births, which gives the incorrect impression that way more unmarried black women than unmarried white women are giving birth. The truth is, only about 2.5% more unmarried black women gave birth (in 2009, at least) than unmarried white women – 5.5% as compared to 3%, relatively speaking. So, roughly double the amount? Per 1,000 women, that is A LOT of unwed pregnancies in real numbers across the board but roughly double for black women . I don’t find that small, at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/648 "2018-07-26T19:07:31Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > So, roughly double the amount? A little less than doubled of a very small percentage, if I’m reading those numbers right. And the rate for unmarried black women has been declining for decades, to its lowest level ever. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/649 "2018-07-26T19:10:59Z")
An interesting fact from that link: the birth rate for unmarried black women is much, much lower today than it was in the 60s. Remember that fact if someone says that black family community statistics used to be stronger, with fewer births from unmarried women, in the past. That’s a false, but oft repeated, notion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/650 "2018-07-26T19:18:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > WTF do you think we’ve been talking about so far? I know what\* I\* think we’re talking about. I want to know what \*you \*think “these issues” are. That’s why I asked. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/651 "2018-07-26T19:50:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The actual numbers of women having babies show that the relative number of unmarried black women having babies is only a bit higher than the relative number of unmarried white women having babies. By that link, about 3% of unmarried white women had babies in 2009. About 5.5% of unmarried black women had babies in 2009. That’s not a large disparity. Again, that’s looking at the actual numbers of unmarried women, per 1000, for both white and black women, having babies, and that disparity is rather small. I think there’s a disconnect in the comparisons. The 70% figure is looking at it from the perspective of the child. The figures you reference above look at it from the perspective of the mother. Wouldn’t multiple births from the same subject cause a variance in those comparisons? I can’t tell how the figures from TNC are compiled to check. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/652 "2018-07-26T19:53:07Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I think there’s a disconnect in the comparisons. The 70% figure is looking at it from the perspective of the child. The figures you reference above look at it from the perspective of the mother. Wouldn’t multiple births from the same subject cause a variance in those comparisons? I can’t tell how the figures from TNC are compiled to check. I don’t think that’s it. I think the difference is comparing unmarried versus married births, rather than looking at the raw relative numbers of unmarried births. The unmarried versus married births looks so weird because, for some reason, very few married black women are giving birth, not because some huge number of unmarried black women are giving birth. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/653 "2018-07-27T11:46:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I think he gave an answer to this above, in post 618, which, if I am reading it right, women who are intimate with guys that are more likely to take risky and irresponsible actions are they themselves prone to risky and irresponsible actions, like not using birth control. > > Not that I necessarily agree, but it is an answer. It’s not an answer to how racism causes it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/654 "2018-07-27T12:45:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Don’t you get sick of making all these caveats to keep the SJWs from jumping down your throat? > > So I am a little confused can you explain how is racism causing all this out of wedlock birth in the black community? How is racism causing all these father to abandon their children? How is racism causing such high rates of truancy and educational failure? How is racism causing such high levels of violence? > > I’m not even saying that these things are the fault of the black community. But I don’t think we are doing anyone any favors by pretending that these things aren’t there and that they (rather than racism) are the cause of much of the black communities woes. > > And I don’t think rape is a very good analogy for the level of racism we have today. Well, no. I included the disclaimer because what I was saying was so simplified down that I knew it had inaccuracies. I much prefer being able to speak with nuance about these topics, but I wanted people to understand I was avoiding it on purpose to try and find where your lack of knowledge comes from. To answer your question as simply as I can: poverty. Racism and poverty are well known to be linked. That reduces educational outcomes in many ways. Lack of nutrition. Lack of good parenting (because parents are working or tired). And it even means worse schools–schools that don’t prepare you for the real world. This makes it where less than legal activities become more attractive as ways to make money. Paternal absenteeism also is linked to crime, both in people dying and people abandoning their family. Crime also tends to push a “stronger is better” mentality which allows toxic “real man” ideas to flourish and discourage more “feminine” concepts such as intimacy. And, again, I’m simplifying. Don’t come back here and point out some rich people still have problems. Of course they do. The effects I talk about are cultural. It takes time to change a culture that has built up over centuries (and, yes, centuries. It started with slavery.) The thing is, if it’s not because of racism, then the only other answer is “It’s something innate in black people.” There is nothing else that’s different. You can blame the culture, but where does that culture come from? History. And what is the history? Racism. My point remains: your attempts to point at Asian people to prove that racism isn’t the problem is faulty. Even if I pretend that the racism they faced was the same, and that there is no selection effect, it still doesn’t work. Even the idea that it comes from culture is faulty, because culture comes from somewhere. I will also argue that there may be epigenetic factors. I do know that mental disorders can be spread that way, and so the harsher reality in past generations can be passed through generations. I apologize if I’m butting into the more nuanced discussion. I’m just trying the more basic stuff because I suspect that is where the disconnect lies. I may not actually be able to help, but I thought I’d try. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/655 "2018-07-27T12:47:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It’s not an answer to how racism causes it. > > Regards, > Shodan Because racism causes men to behave in irresponsible and reckless ways. And this irresponsibility and recklessness rubs off on the women, causing them to do irresponsible and reckless things, like not use birth control. I didn’t say I agree, but it was an answer. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/656 "2018-07-27T15:20:40Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Because racism causes men to behave in irresponsible and reckless ways. And this irresponsibility and recklessness rubs off on the women, causing them to do irresponsible and reckless things, like not use birth control. > > I didn’t say I agree, but it was an answer. That’s not exactly it – I’m not saying anything “rubs off”, just that these decisions are often or usually made with input from 2 parties, and if one of the parties is more likely due to other circumstances to behave recklessly, then that means that a greater number of these decisions will be made with reckless input, and thus a greater likelihood of more reckless decisions. As well as the possibility that there are external circumstances affecting the likelihood of decisions made by black women as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/657 "2018-07-27T15:22:43Z")
No one has responded to the numbers I posted in some of my recent posts that show that unmarried black women have significantly fewer babies now than in past decades, as well as a shrinking disparity with the number of babies unmarried white women have. Doesn’t this show that, whatever the problem is, culture or racism or something else or a combination, the problem is getting better? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/658 "2018-07-27T15:26:24Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s not exactly it – I’m not saying anything “rubs off”, just that these decisions are often or usually made with input from 2 parties, and if one of the parties is more likely due to other circumstances to behave recklessly, then that means that a greater number of these decisions will be made with reckless input, and thus a greater likelihood of more reckless decisions. As well as the possibility that there are external circumstances affecting the likelihood of decisions made by black women as well. Perhaps one day a method of birth control will be invented that doesn’t require decisions right at the moment of passion. One that can be utilized daily, or even yearly, where the reckless and irresponsible person won’t have a say in it. One can hope. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/659 "2018-07-27T15:38:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Perhaps one day a method of birth control will be invented that doesn’t require decisions right at the moment of passion. One that can be utilized daily, or even yearly, where the reckless and irresponsible person won’t have a say in it. > > One can hope. Amusing, but we’re talking about the broad trends in decisions made by millions, some of whom can’t afford the pill (or IUDs), or can’t take the pill (or an IUD) for medical reasons, or have other legitimate reasons to not use those methods. What specific assertion have I made that you disagree with? I’ll put it yet another way – suppose we take 1000 sets of identical twin women, all of whom are identical in every way, and separate them at age 20. Group A only has the opportunity to date men who have undergone severe personal, family, and/or institutional trauma, while group B only dates men who were from extremely stable upper-middle-class families. Do you believe the two groups will have identical numbers of pregnancies after 1 year? If not, does it have anything to do with the “culture” of the women? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2018, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/660 "2018-07-27T15:46:08Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What specific assertion have I made that you disagree with? That racism or whiteness or whatever has anything to do with women not utilizing birth control methods. > [@](#): > > I’ll put it yet another way – suppose we take 1000 sets of identical twin women, all of whom are identical in every way, and separate them at age 20. Group A only has the opportunity to date men who have undergone severe personal, family, and/or institutional trauma, while group B only dates men who were from extremely stable upper-middle-class families. Do you believe the two groups will have identical numbers of pregnancies after 1 year? If not, does it have anything to do with the “culture” of the women? I have no idea what the answer to that would be. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=34)