# Racialism: Everyone's Favorite Politics **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715 "2018-07-11T14:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/101 "2018-07-12T13:38:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > That’s generally the standard for the government when it comes up. We ask people for demographic information. Not just race but all manner of details and we generally just take their word for it. They could be using a different definition of age or lying. Or maybe they actually believe they’ve turned 32 every year for the past decade. But when I want to look at workforce participation rates for all people age 25-54 (a number often discussed on this board) I use BLS data where we’re just taking everyone’s word for it, with the understanding and acceptance that there’s going to be some fuzz and questionable edge cases. Same as if I want to look at that same number for black teens. It’s not like BLS is pulling birth records. If I call myself a black teens in the survey, they’re going to have a point for a black teen with unusual education, employment, and income. > > And so if we’re looking at whether a policy has a disparate impact on different groups, we’re pretty much always going be relying on how people describe themselves. Outside of, say, geography. Do you think someone like Clint Howard getting a contract with funds designated for minority-owned businesses is in line with progressive policy and rhetoric? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/102 "2018-07-12T13:39:35Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > This thread. Other threads. Your words. > > Seriously, it’s like you’re not even trying to make sense. Then you are taking huge leaps in logic and assuming something I never remotely said. Perhaps you have a mental caricature of people who advocate non-violence and peaceful disobedience. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/103 "2018-07-12T13:39:46Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So do you think Obama is whatever he identifies as? Everyone _is_ just a human being. Race matters insomuch as perception. As such, I would think Obama experienced many of the same prejudices as others who are perceived as black. (However, he experienced not as much of the economic disadvantages that befall many in that community disproportionately, coming from a non-poor household.) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/104 "2018-07-12T13:43:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Huh? You’re whining about a lack of “direct responses”, and you throw this sort of this so-vague-as-to-be-meaningless nonsense around (“he aren’t”… wtf)? What the hell are you talking about? > > I’ll tell you what – you ask a clear question, and I’ll do my best to answer. If you’re asking whether I agree with those weirdoes who insisted Obama was somehow “exaggerating” by talking about his mother and grandparents, then no, I don’t agree, and theirs is a ridiculous (and racist) assertion. I already asked you a direct question. Two. They were very clear, but let’s try again. They said “you either are or you aren’t [white]”. Do you agree with this statement? They said “he aren’t [white]”, translated “Obama isn’t white”. Do you agree with this statement. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/105 "2018-07-12T13:46:15Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Everyone _is_ just a human being. Race matters insomuch as perception. As such, I would think Obama experienced many of the same prejudices as others who are perceived as black. (However, he experienced not as much of the economic disadvantages that befall many in that community disproportionately, coming from a non-poor household.) So whether Obama is black or white is not important to you, but the experiences he individually experienced is? That is identical to my position, my own corollary being that race-based policy is not advisable because it does not take into account individual experience. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/106 "2018-07-12T13:49:45Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > This thread is mostly about people active in discussing politics. The everyday person is not as obsessed with racial classification as the rabid activists. Let’s be honest, I’m talking about the lower classes, who regard people on an individual basis rather than as members of a collective. When they talk in racial collective language it’s mostly harmless and they’re usually just joking around. > The politics of racialism are beloved across the political spectrum. We have the usual suspects, including your KKK, your neo-Nazis, your White Nationalists. They are still having a good time with this. You have your Trumpists, who prefer immigrants from Europe, whom they would classify as “White”. > > You also have your moderates who support race-based policies like affirmative action. Your right of center moderates don’t talk race too much. As soon as you tick past that plumb-line into the Obamas, Bidens, and Clinton’s, we start hearing it. Racialism is wholly inescapable in leftist rhetoric. Racial diversity is paramount. They group everyone into races and advocate for policy based on race. Every event that happens must be viewed through the racialist lens. > > I have a simple question for the many racialists among us. Who is white? Who is black? > > We have some historical examples. We had the “one drop rule”. Is this still in effect? We have the paper bag test. We have heritage-based claims of race, but these seem rather fluid and confusing. One person in a pit thread suggested he can tell if someone is white by last name. When we were on the playground as young kids, a person’s voice was a factor. Do economic factors play a role? I am in need of guidance on this, buddies. This question used to be easy. You could just ask the actual racists who they were discriminating against blacks and you could figure out who the blacks were. For a while black included the irish and italians. These days its tougher because black isn’t defined by the racists, its defined by the folks trying to reverse the effects of racism and they never really had a clue wtf the critieria was for being a second class citizen, so they guess. In the process of guessing they end up giving advantages to middle class blacks over poor asian immigrants because they see blacks as a whole doing poorly and asians as a whole doing better and decide that this disparity must be the result of racism, past or present. I suspect we will see the end of these racial preferences in the next few years after they confirm this justice and perhaps one more under Trump (if RBG gets sick) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/107 "2018-07-12T13:50:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I want just policies and practices by society. If a group (racial or otherwise) isn’t being treated justly, on average, by institutions in society, then policies should be put into place to fix that. The problem is that a lot of policies being pushed are a reaction to injustice but a reaction to disparity. There is this belief that disparity cannot exist without racism or injustice so everywhere you see blacks and hispanics underperforming, you see race based policy emerging. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/108 "2018-07-12T13:52:30Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > And that unjust and unequal treatment was done by putting people into separate groups. So make America one group. One united group. Not a group of African-American, another group of German-Americans, another group of Italian-Americans, another group of Arab-Americans, another group of Asian-Americans, another group of … Be one united group of Americans. Non American offering us advice. Thanks, but we got this. We didn’t get to be the greatest land on the planet by taking advice from foreigners. Seriously, though, you’re missing the point of _E pluribus unum_. We are a country brought together by ideals, not ethnicity, so there is nothing divisive (in theory) when some of us retain ethic cultural sub-identities as part of being American. German Americans (I presume) are well aware they are Americans, as are African Americans and every other group that lives here. German Americans and African Americans are not less American than Catholic Americans, or Jewish Americans, or female Americans, or football loving Americans. It’s just an added description, it may sound weird to foreigners, but we’re okay with it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/109 "2018-07-12T13:54:49Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > They said “you either are or you aren’t [white]”. Do you agree with this statement? Assuming this is what they meant (and I have no reason to believe you can read the minds of those you call “bumpkins” any better than you do liberals), then no. Race is a very complicated social construct. It’s entirely possible to be both white and another category, or many other (nigh-infinite) combinations. > [@](#): > > They said “he aren’t [white]”, translated “Obama isn’t white”. Do you agree with this statement. I’d have to ask Mr. Obama (again, assuming this is what they meant). Anyone making such a statement about someone they don’t know intimately is demonstrating great ignorance about the complicated nature of the social construct of race. So once again, you are completely wrong about how liberals think. I know there’s very little chance of this, but hopefully you’ll re-evaluate your own thinking of liberals/progressives and recognize that your impressions and tendencies of their/our motivations are usually wildly incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/110 "2018-07-12T13:56:27Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Do you think someone like Clint Howard getting a contract with funds designated for minority-owned businesses is in line with progressive policy and rhetoric? Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/111 "2018-07-12T14:02:48Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So whether Obama is black or white is not important to you, but the experiences he individually experienced is? That is identical to my position, my own corollary being that race-based policy is not advisable because it does not take into account individual experience. Nothing is perfect when it comes to “policy.” Although I’m not sure what “race-based” policies you’re thinking about, isn’t it often better to so something than nothing? It’s really going to be hard to replace a minority-owned business preference with one that attempts to take into account individual experiences. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/112 "2018-07-12T14:11:49Z")
The way I see it, and would argue. Policy needs to be colorblind or you are in fact endorsing racism. Whether or not it’s intended to right a wrong of hundreds of years ago or a wrong you just saw committed, it’s still wrong and racist in it’s own right. Policies that are colorblind need to be enforced colorblind as well. If, for example, police are treating a certain demographic differently, then that needs to be addressed, but NOT with a racist policy. It needs to be addressed by following the colorblind policy that affects everyone equally. Eventually, as stated everyone will be some gray color and race will be gone. The continuation of racist policies keeps the divide bright even if in your mind it is to create a more equal playing field ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/113 "2018-07-12T14:15:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The problem is that a lot of policies being pushed are a reaction to injustice but a reaction to disparity. There is this belief that disparity cannot exist without racism or injustice so everywhere you see blacks and hispanics underperforming, you see race based policy emerging. There’s plenty of evidence (discussed in lots of other threads) that these disparities are due to injustices. You might or might not find this evidence convincing. IMO, affirmative action is an imperfect and temporary solution that, when well instituted, results in more just and equal opportunities for all than existed without it. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/114 "2018-07-12T14:19:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > There’s plenty of evidence (discussed in lots of other threads) that these disparities are due to injustices. You might or might not find this evidence convincing. IMO, affirmative action is an imperfect and temporary solution that, when well instituted, results in more just and equal opportunities for all than existed without it. Affirmative action, while intending to grant opportunities to those who previously may not have, is still a racist policy. To grant someone opportunities based upon race instead of opportunity based upon experience or some other individual basis, is racist. Make it a colorblind (say based upon being poor, or being the kin of a slave, or kin of an American Indian), but making a policy that affects only those of a certain race, is racism. Period. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/115 "2018-07-12T14:24:09Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Affirmative action, while intending to grant opportunities to those who previously may not have, is still a racist policy. To grant someone opportunities based upon race instead of opportunity based upon experience or some other individual basis, is racist. > Make it a colorblind (say based upon being poor, or being the kin of a slave, or kin of an American Indian), but making a policy that affects only those of a certain race, is racism. Period. I disagree. If you want to have an in depth conversation about AA, I might take part, but I’d recommend opening a new thread or reopening one of the many existing threads on the topic, to avoid a hijack. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/116 "2018-07-12T14:26:04Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Assuming this is what they meant (and I have no reason to believe you can read the minds of those you call “bumpkins” any better than you do liberals), then no. Race is a very complicated social construct. It’s entirely possible to be both white and another category, or many other (nigh-infinite) combinations. > > I’d have to ask Mr. Obama (again, assuming this is what they meant). Anyone making such a statement about someone they don’t know intimately is demonstrating great ignorance about the complicated nature of the social construct of race. > > So once again, you are completely wrong about how liberals think. I know there’s very little chance of this, but hopefully you’ll re-evaluate your own thinking of liberals/progressives and recognize that your impressions and tendencies of their/our motivations are usually wildly incorrect. Hmm, with so much complication, the way strident claims such as “black people are treated unjustly by white people” seems a bit hamfisted. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/117 "2018-07-12T14:29:56Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > The racist bumpkins believe that “you either are or you aren’t”, do you disagree? > > The racist bumpkins believe “he aren’t”, meaning Obama isn’t white. Do you disagree? 1. This “bumpkin” thing you’re pushing? Bored already. 2. Mindreading isn’t the only thing you aren’t very good at-They were implying that Obama wasn’t _black_, therefore they weren’t being racist by hating him. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/118 "2018-07-12T14:30:50Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Nothing is perfect when it comes to “policy.” Although I’m not sure what “race-based” policies you’re thinking about, isn’t it often better to so something than nothing? It’s really going to be hard to replace a minority-owned business preference with one that attempts to take into account individual experiences. Ok then repeal and don’t replace it the government is unable to accomplish such a hard task. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/119 "2018-07-12T14:31:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. This “bumpkin” thing you’re pushing? Bored already. > 2. Mindreading isn’t the only thing you aren’t very good at-They were implying that Obama wasn’t _black_, therefore they weren’t being racist by hating him. Reread ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715/120 "2018-07-12T14:32:57Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > So, is all this verbiage because you’re embarrased to be white? Or is it because you’re mad that being white isn’t as special (and, in many circles is becoming a handicap) anymore? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I don’t care about white identity, what don’t you understand? > [@JohnT](#): > > So, why do you care about others identity? > > Your post makes zero sense in how you portray yourself to us. [Abed sarcastic voice]“I don’t care about white identity, but GOD FORBID a non-white person is identified as such.”[/Abed] > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > What makes you think I would care if a non-white identifies as a white? > [@JohnT](#): > > This thread. Other threads. Your words. > > Seriously, it’s like you’re not even trying to make sense. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Then you are taking huge leaps in logic and assuming something I never remotely said. Perhaps you have a mental caricature of people who advocate non-violence and peaceful disobedience. … while at the same time… > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > So do you think Obama is whatever he identifies as? > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Hmm, with so much complication, the way strident claims such as “black people are treated unjustly by white people” seems a bit hamfisted. … :dubious: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racialism-everyones-favorite-politics/817715.md?page=7)