# Racism against the Romani people **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 5, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598 "2019-07-05T23:34:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/41 "2019-07-08T23:03:29Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Does anyone really think in the ethnic stew of Central and Southern Europe there are any genuine difference between generic “Slav”, Romani, Magyar, Romanian, Moldvanian, Ukranian, Ashkenazi and who knows what else. Maybe at one time they spoke different languages, but what else? Hatred and bigotry are wrong, but come on, this just sounds foolish. Those are all very different cultures. If you said “oh, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Laotian, Thai, what’s the difference?” you’d rightly be called ignorant. Some of those cultures may have been influenced by each other, but they’re still all different. This doesn’t hold any less true in the “ethnic stew” of “Central and Southern Europe” (which also includes Italy, France, Greece, Spain, and a host of other distinct cultures.) ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2019, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/42 "2019-07-08T23:45:16Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#): > > I am not really asking why people are racist in general. It just seems like hating the Romani (or travelers) is accepted even among people who are not otherwise racist. It’s possible that a lot of people have personal experience that results in them building these biases. Like, if you get mugged 10 times and 9 times out of 10 it’s a person of a particular ethnicity, you will probably build up a dislike of that ethnicity, even if only a small % of that ethnic group commits crimes. I’m not sure what % of Romani people are of the thieving/swindling/crime committing type, but it’s possible that the crime committed by Romani people is widespread enough that the stereotype is strongly held by wide swaths of the European population. Certainly, historical biases propagating is a factor, but it seems like the crime rate among Romani people in Europe is still high in contemporary times. It is possible for all of these statements to be true: 1. Romani people constitute a small % of the population of a country 2. Only a minority of Romani people are criminals 3. A highly disproportionate (or even a majority) of petty crimes in a country are committed by people of Romani descent Even if 2) means that it is unfair to paint Romani people with a broad brush, 1 + 3 is enough for people to easily build prejudices against them. Eg. this [wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiziganism#Czech_Republic) suggests that 20-30% of the Romani living in the Czech Republic earn their livelihood in illegal ways, so with that kind of presence it is not surprising at all to me that people come to have these prejudices. I’m not saying they are right to have these prejudices, just that it’s easy to see where the stereotypes originate from. I’m sure the reasons for why the crime rate is so high in Romani populations is complex. > [@Velocity](#): > > Sounds like once again a case of “more than others” vs. “not all.” Both are true, but some try to conflate the two. This seems likely to me. > [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s telling that Romani who have moved to the US have had far fewer problems than those who stayed in Europe. > > It’s not that there are no problems - there certainly are, from underage/child brides, lack of formal education, and yes, a certain level of crime - but it’s not as bad as Europe. For one thing, moving around a lot is something more common in the States than in the Old World so that’s seen as less suspicious. There is less institutionalized prejudice. A substantial portion of US Romani have adopted a settled lifestyle, started/work in businesses, and are better off than their European counterparts. Some continue to travel, but my impression is that a nomadic lifestyle is less problematic in North America than in Europe. The Romani are not the only people who move around a lot over here. Which is not saying that nomadic groups here have a blissful existence - there are several groups that move around and they do suffer from the prejudice of non-nomads, but it is possible to live that way over here without constantly breaking the law. > > So while there are problematic aspects to their culture (just like every other culture) it’s clear that part of their on-going problems in Europe are due to prejudice because once that’s removed, as in US, they have fewer problems and more prosperity. While that’s one possibility, it’s not at all clear that the culture of Romani people in the US is all that similar to those in Europe. Certainly the culture of immigrants in Canada/the US varies pretty significantly from the culture of people in their countries of origin, and the distribution of socio-economic class of immigrants is also not necessarily reflective of the class distribution in the home countries as well - why should it be any different for Romani immigrants? If the same % of Romani people in the US committed crimes at the rates that are experienced in Europe, I’d imagine the prejudice against Romani people would grow rather quickly in the US as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/43 "2019-07-09T07:41:45Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#): > > I am not really asking why people are racist in general. It just seems like hating the Romani (or travelers) is accepted even among people who are not otherwise racist. It seems to me that it’s less about matters of “race” than it is about the reality of two groups of people living in the same place under different Social Contracts. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/44 "2019-07-09T07:58:29Z")
> [@Delayed\_Reflex](#): > > While that’s one possibility, it’s not at all clear that the culture of Romani people in the US is all that similar to those in Europe. Certainly the culture of immigrants in Canada/the US varies pretty significantly from the culture of people in their countries of origin, and the distribution of socio-economic class of immigrants is also not necessarily reflective of the class distribution in the home countries as well - why should it be any different for Romani immigrants? If the same % of Romani people in the US committed crimes at the rates that are experienced in Europe, I’d imagine the prejudice against Romani people would grow rather quickly in the US as well. One reason the socio-economic distribution of an immigrant group may differ from that of the group in the home country/continent is a lack of systematic prejudice. Without having to fight stereotypes like “all Gypsies are thieves” it makes it easier for Romani in the US to have legitimate jobs as that’s one barrier to honest employment removed. I don’t know the crime rate of the Romani in the US, but here they’re associated with things like fortune-telling scams and underage marriage whether that’s truly a big problem or not, and those are not perceived as crimes on the same level as, say, murder and bank robbery or large-scale financial scams. For the most part the Romani are largely invisible in the US so it’s hard to say anything definitive about them. Where they do encounter prejudice it’s more likely to be generalized bias against, say, the poor rather than against their background. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/45 "2019-07-09T09:17:09Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Honestly? “We can’t be racist. We’re Europeans. Only Americans are racist.” > > It’s partly history, as in Europeans thinking they purged themselves of racism in WWII and utterly immunized themselves against it with hate speech laws, and partly a consequence of them seeing America as being on top; it isn’t bad if you’re punching _up_, you see, so they can call the Americans racist and just… forget that their hatred of the Romani is also founded in prejudices about racial groups. Heh. The US is one of the least racist…not most racist countries in the world. And certainly one of the most diverse. And thats coming from someone who has had the shit beaten out of him THREE times for the color of his skin. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/46 "2019-07-09T10:34:28Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Honestly? “We can’t be racist. We’re Europeans. Only Americans are racist.” > > It’s partly history, as in Europeans thinking they purged themselves of racism in WWII and utterly immunized themselves against it with hate speech laws, and partly a consequence of them seeing America as being on top; it isn’t bad if you’re punching _up_, you see, so they can call the Americans racist and just… forget that their hatred of the Romani is also founded in prejudices about racial groups. What ? No. Many French people are plenty ok with their racism/antisemitism (we even have a political party for it) and find no end of rationalizations for it, I can vouch for that much. And from what I hear/read on the interwebs the Balkan countries are outright virulent with this shit. Also, mostly we don’t give a shit about the US ? Much, much less than y’all seem to think we do anyway. And when we do, it’s mostly to laugh at you guys I’m afraid :o. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/47 "2019-07-09T18:21:21Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#): > > I am not really asking why people are racist in general. It just seems like hating the Romani (or travelers) is accepted even among people who are not otherwise racist. Because hateful people need someone to hate and right now in parts of Europe, Roma are visibly different enough to make them easy targets. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/48 "2019-07-09T20:24:41Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > And even if they are like us, we’ll find a way to make them different from us. > > Does anyone really think in the ethnic stew of Central and Southern Europe there are any genuine difference between generic “Slav”, Romani, Magyar, Romanian, Moldvanian, Ukranian, Ashkenazi and who knows what else. Maybe at one time they spoke different languages, but what else? I have long suspected that the root of the hatred between these European groups had to do with disagreements over accepted ingredients in cabbage rolls. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/49 "2019-07-09T21:54:06Z")
Some tidbits: Until the 1850s Romani were held in chattel slavery in Romania. It wasn’t until 1982 that the West German government recognized the Romani Holocaust. I’d guess most people of Romani decent in the U.S. started “passing” the moment they got off the boat. My great grandparents sure as hell did. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/50 "2019-07-09T22:11:53Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > If you said “oh, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Laotian, Thai, what’s the difference?” you’d rightly be called ignorant. Some of those cultures may have been influenced by each other, but they’re still all different. This doesn’t hold any less true in the “ethnic stew” of “Central and Southern Europe” (which also includes Italy, France, Greece, Spain, and a host of other distinct cultures.) My wife is an American Sansei (descended from Japanese immigrant grandparents.) She’s been happy to give me a full explanation of the rivalries between Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. all the way to Micronesian. The white people who subjected her to casual racism and bigotry throughout the 1950s, '60s, '70s and even after our marriage really didn’t give a shit about in what country her grandparents were born. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/51 "2019-07-10T04:15:10Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > The US is one of the least racist…not most racist countries in the world. And certainly one of the most diverse. Middle of the road on the second, actually, with Europe catching up quickly. You guys sure make a lot of noise about it, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![MarvinKitFox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MarvinKitFox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarvinKitFox)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/52 "2019-07-10T09:19:19Z")
> [@Danger\_Man](#): > > Wanting to learn more about the Romani people, … > What is it that makes it more acceptable to hate this particular group? I’ve often wondered about this myself. Especially considering that they were actually treated _worse_ than the Jews in the Holocaust. Yes, really. Strange how everyone forgets about them. And the Poles. And the Soviet prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Brayne\_Ded](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/53 "2019-07-10T21:27:50Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s telling that Romani who have moved to the US have had far fewer problems than those who stayed in Europe. > > It’s not that there are no problems - there certainly are, from underage/child brides, lack of formal education, and yes, a certain level of crime - but it’s not as bad as Europe. For one thing, moving around a lot is something more common in the States than in the Old World so that’s seen as less suspicious. There is less institutionalized prejudice. A substantial portion of US Romani have adopted a settled lifestyle, started/work in businesses, and are better off than their European counterparts. Some continue to travel, but my impression is that a nomadic lifestyle is less problematic in North America than in Europe. The Romani are not the only people who move around a lot over here. Which is not saying that nomadic groups here have a blissful existence - there are several groups that move around and they do suffer from the prejudice of non-nomads, but it is possible to live that way over here without constantly breaking the law. > > So while there are problematic aspects to their culture (just like every other culture) it’s clear that part of their on-going problems in Europe are due to prejudice because once that’s removed, as in US, they have fewer problems and more prosperity. The USA has more much open space that these people an go to. Increasingly, there are problems in Europe because there is nowhere where they can stop for a while without becoming nuisance. Essentially, it is a rural lifestyle, and they do not fit into an urban world. In a modern society any itinerant traveling group will run up against two problems: how to earn money legitimately, which is far more diffiicult if they have no skills or education, and secondly, they tend to be outside the educational system, which officialdom really does not like. Concerning money, in the old days some of the traveling people worked as tinkers, an unskilled job for which there is no demand nowadays. In general, there is a worldwide trend to make nomads and traveling people settle down and stay in one place. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/54 "2019-07-10T22:40:43Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > in the old days some of the traveling people worked as tinkers, an unskilled job It’s not an unskilled job. That’s why most settled people didn’t do it themselves. It’s true that that particular skill’s no longer in demand. But that doesn’t mean that no skill was needed to do it. (Actually, there are an awful lot of things that people who’ve never done them, or have only played at for a short time, think are unskilled that require considerable skills to do at all well.) ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/55 "2019-07-10T23:54:40Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#): > > The USA has more much open space that these people an go to. Increasingly, there are problems in Europe because there is nowhere where they can stop for a while without becoming nuisance. Essentially, it is a rural lifestyle, and they do not fit into an urban world. > > In a modern society any itinerant traveling group will run up against two problems: how to earn money legitimately, which is far more diffiicult if they have no skills or education, and secondly, they tend to be outside the educational system, which officialdom really does not like. Concerning money, in the old days some of the traveling people worked as tinkers, an unskilled job for which there is no demand nowadays. In general, there is a worldwide trend to make nomads and traveling people settle down and stay in one place. Not all Romani are nomadic. And the problem with Romani persecution goes way way back - long before significant urbanization in Europe. They’ve often been prohibited in Europe from attending public schools. Many of the problems the African Americans have had in the United States are mirrored in the way Europe has treated Romani. And many of the stereotypes are the same - they are less intelligent, predisposed to crime, lazy. Another thing African Americans and Romani have in common is that their music was stolen and monetized by the dominant culture. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/56 "2019-07-11T00:49:02Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Another thing African Americans and Romani have in common is that their music was stolen and monetized by the dominant culture. Pretty much every kind of “folk” music everywhere in the world was stolen and monetized by the dominant culture. Just ask poor, white Appalachian mountain folk how much they made off of Bluegrass. For that matter, how much did the Shakers receive from Aaron Copeland when he decided to use\* Simple Gifts\* in _Appalachian Spring_? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598/57 "2019-07-11T22:11:27Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > It’s not just the Romani. I witnessed some jaw droppingly bigoted comments against Slavs while peacekeeping in Bosnia. You mean from your fellow peacekeepers? It’s hard to fathom the local population making such comments given that 99% of them are Slavs themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-against-the-romani-people/836598.md?page=2)