# racism and self defense my ass...WI vs. Vang **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 19, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375 "2005-09-19T16:16:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Burrido](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@Burrido](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burrido)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/21 "2005-09-19T19:36:55Z")
Not only is his family supportive of his actions, but alot of hmong here do also. It’s the OJ trial all over again. When the killings happened, people lined up and took sides along racial lines. Very few people I knew were neutral and wanted to wait til more information came out before making a decision. There are a couple concerns that I do have with the trial. An all white jury, Mr. Vangs attorney letting him go on the stand, and his defense entirely for that matter. This is just fuel for an appeal. They really should of seen this and try to make it as proper as possible. Of course, it probably wouldn’t of made a difference anyway since he might of appealled regardless but it does make it look proper in the court of opinion. We don’t know what really happened that day. We do know he shot unarmed people. Some of them in the back. Others ninja style when they came to help their friends. He is going to pay for his crimes. I just hope that this case and Mr.Vang will go away. Neither has done anything to further the relations here in the Twin Cities. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/22 "2005-09-19T19:50:24Z")
How do you shoot someone “ninja style”? And what connection is there to “Ninjas” and the Hmong besides the Asian origin? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/23 "2005-09-19T19:58:27Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > How do you shoot someone “ninja style”? And what connection is there to “Ninjas” and the Hmong besides the Asian origin? 1. Vang is a mammal 2. Vang fights ALL the time 3. The purpose of Vang is to flip out and kill people. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/24 "2005-09-19T20:15:15Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > 1. Vang is a mammal > 2. Vang fights ALL the time > 3. The purpose of Vang is to flip out and kill people. So, you are saying he is a Ninja? ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/25 "2005-09-19T20:34:43Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > By similar reasoning, Vang is probably lying when he claims that the hunters used racial epithets. (They denied doing so.) But you don’t see people questioning that, because “everyone” “knows” that white hunters are racists. So instead of reporting the real and obvious problem of Hmong violence, the media directed their attention at the climate of racism they were just sure must exist out there somewhere. > > How about your father’s other wife or wives? (He was a polygamist.) The guy is guilty and deserves his punishment, but I have to say that having spent some time in rural Northern Wisconsin, it is highly likely that he received a ton of racial crap. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/26 "2005-09-19T20:40:37Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > 1. Vang is a mammal > 2. Vang fights ALL the time > 3. The purpose of Vang is to flip out and kill people. I have also been told he wails on guitars constantly and hates pirates. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/27 "2005-09-19T20:41:32Z")
Receiving a ton of racial crap is no excuse to shoot people in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/28 "2005-09-19T20:58:54Z")
Just makes you wonder how the day would have ended if they would have invited a lost guy to hunt with them. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/29 "2005-09-19T21:00:03Z")
> [@Snakescatlady](#): > > Receiving a ton of racial crap is no excuse to shoot people in the back. It was important to say that because so many people in this thread have been making that claim. ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/30 "2005-09-19T21:01:25Z")
> [@Lamar Mundane](#): > > The guy is guilty and deserves his punishment, but I have to say that having spent some time in rural Northern Wisconsin, it is highly likely that he received a ton of racial crap. And if you can’t stand the racism stay out of Wisconsin? You are visiting someone else’s home, if you don’t like it, don’t go there. I excercise caution in certain parts of certain states when I visit, because it is prudent to do so. In small-town America, you nod and say ‘hi’ in NYC, you don’t make eye contact ever. When in Rome…respect the Romans. Really, if I were a land-owner in rural northern Wisconsin and I constantly had to run people off my land, and the majority of them were Hmong, I might used a few choice words when I came across them. My understanding is that the Hmong people come from a society without so much private land and they show no respect for property-owner’s rights. This has been an ongoing situation in Wisconsin for years. Vang and his family and other ‘supporters’ have made the situation worse by committing the crime in the first place, and then defending his actions and professing their pride and screaming racism. Dane County (where the jury was chosen) is as close to impartial as you are going to get in Wisconsin. Next time a Hmong hunter shows up on private property, the owner’s response might be to shoot first and ask questions later. I’m sure it will be self-defense because the Hmong community is racist. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/31 "2005-09-19T21:16:41Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > By similar reasoning, Vang is probably lying when he claims that the hunters used racial epithets. (They denied doing so.) But you don’t see people questioning that, because “everyone” “knows” that white hunters are racists. That’s crap. I agree that there are just as many reasons to believe that Vang was lying as to believe that the other witnesses were lying. The difference is that, being more of them, their evidence weighs more heavily in court. I was simply making a general point about the likelihood of people stretching the truth for self-serving reasons in situations like this. > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > So instead of reporting the real and obvious problem of Hmong violence, the media directed their attention at the climate of racism they were just sure must exist out there somewhere. “Hmong violence”? I was under the impression that it was one guy who committed these shootings. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > To portray herself as the victim here, and in particular a victim because she is fatherless, is the height of assholery, her age notwithstanding. Thing is, despite your protestations to the contrary, she _is_ a victim in this case. Sure, she’s not the worst-affected victim, she is at least still alive (unlike six other people), and we shouldn’t let her problems blind us to the grief her father caused to so many others, but she has still suffered and will continue to suffer for her father’s unpardonalbe actions. You can carry on as if she’s some sort of accomplice if you like, but it’s rather unbecoming of you. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > How about his uncle and sister, who are actually proud of his actions? Like the OP said, a family of assholes. The uncle and the sister are a different story. My original point was about the daughter, and her alone. And even then, i’m generally willing to cut some slack to families involved in such situations when they are under the pressure that such a trial and conviction, and the attendant publicity, brings with it. Their comments were made soon after the verdict, when emotion is always likely to overcome reason. > [@xbuckeye](#): > > In small-town America, you nod and say ‘hi’ in NYC, you don’t make eye contact ever. 😕 Someone’s been getting his information from the “New York City is overrun with gangs and psychos” school of stupidity. I don’t think i’ve ever seen anything so idiotic. In my experience, the vast majority of New Yorkers are friendly, affable types whose most likely response to eye contact is to either ignore you, or nod and smile. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/32 "2005-09-19T21:25:23Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > “Hmong violence”? > > I was under the impression that it was one guy who committed these shootings. He’s one of _them_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/33 "2005-09-19T22:09:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That’s crap. > > I agree that there are just as many reasons to believe that Vang was lying as to believe that the other witnesses were lying. The difference is that, being more of them, their evidence weighs more heavily in court. I was simply making a general point about the likelihood of people stretching the truth for self-serving reasons in situations like this." So…what does this have to do with my assertion that Vang is as likely to be a liar as the victims? > [@](#): > > “Hmong violence”? Yes, have you heard [there’s](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_2_72/ai_98253655) [a](http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/27/gang.rape.folo/) [Hmong](http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/21/hmong.rapes/) [violence](http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2002-08-01/cb3.shtml) [problem](http://www.fresnobee.com/special/hmong/) [?](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/05/11_williamsb_hmongshooting/) If you want to assert that white hunters tend to be racist liars, just remember that the broad brush paints in both directions. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/34 "2005-09-19T23:07:53Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > If you want to assert that white hunters tend to be racist liars, just remember that the broad brush paints in both directions. Please show me where i made any such assertion. If you can’t, then shove your accusation up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/35 "2005-09-19T23:10:41Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > Yes, have you heard [there’s](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2194/is_2_72/ai_98253655) [a](http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/27/gang.rape.folo/) [Hmong](http://www.cnn.com/US/9910/21/hmong.rapes/) [violence](http://www.citypaper.net/articles/2002-08-01/cb3.shtml) [problem](http://www.fresnobee.com/special/hmong/) [?](http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/05/11_williamsb_hmongshooting/) Using your logic, i could probably find you six disparate articles from all over the country about any one of dozens of ethnic or social groups that would demonstrate that they have a “violence problem.” ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/36 "2005-09-19T23:14:14Z")
Forgot to add: The type of violence displayed in the Wisconsin shooting is different in many ways from the instances cited in your linked articles. Sure, Vang may have been reacting to (ream or perceived) racist comments or attitudes. Or he could just be a fucking nutjob. Either way, he’s no more evidence for a culture of violence among the Hmong than any other similar nutjob killer. Unless you can demonstrate his connections to the types of gangs described in those articles. Then, you _might_ have a point. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/37 "2005-09-19T23:22:50Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Thing is, despite your protestations to the contrary, she _is_ a victim in this case. Sure, she’s not the worst-affected victim, she is at least still alive (unlike six other people), and we shouldn’t let her problems blind us to the grief her father caused to so many others, but she has still suffered and will continue to suffer for her father’s unpardonalbe actions. You can carry on as if she’s some sort of accomplice if you like, but it’s rather unbecoming of you. Wel shoot. To paraphrase Bonnie Bramlett right after she punched Elvis Costello in the face, “This had to happen just when I was trying to be a lady.” I really did not mean to portray her as an accomplice, and I like to think that when I carry on there is a bit more blood in the water, but … My point is that she is fatherless for the same reason that others are fatherless–her father killed their fathers. For her to piss and moan about being without a father\* who will spend the rest of his life in prison for murdering six people\* is a bit dramatic. He is the kind of father that one is better off without. By the way, what’s with the small case “i”? Just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/38 "2005-09-19T23:33:46Z")
there is (probably) a real (if ghoulish)difference. As the child of a deceased father, the children are likely eligible for SS benefits, insurance and the like, unlike the child of a living, imprisoned father. not that I’m saying that $$ makes up for missng a dad, but the two situations are not identical. ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/39 "2005-09-19T23:55:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Forgot to add: > > The type of violence displayed in the Wisconsin shooting is different in many ways from the instances cited in your linked articles. Sure, Vang may have been reacting to (ream or perceived) racist comments or attitudes. Or he could just be a fucking nutjob. Either way, he’s no more evidence for a culture of violence among the Hmong than any other similar nutjob killer. > > Unless you can demonstrate his connections to the types of gangs described in those articles. Then, you _might_ have a point. It’s not my principal aim to dump on the Hmong, but rather on the news coverage of the case. Every single story makes reference to racism as a factor (ranging from a potential contributor to an assumed overarching framework), but in reality, the only person who said the hunters were making racial insults is the murdering bastard who shot them down. On that flimsy evidence, the media gallop off to solve what they perceive as the “real” problem: white racism. That is not the real problem. The real problem is that someone shot a bunch of unarmed people for no good reason. If the media insist on reading between the lines to find some kind of underlying mechanism at work, the known and documented difficulties of the Hmong in adapting to American culture are a much more likely candidate than white racism. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375/40 "2005-09-19T23:55:36Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > My point is that she is fatherless for the same reason that others are fatherless–her father killed their fathers. For her to piss and moan about being without a father\* who will spend the rest of his life in prison for murdering six people\* is a bit dramatic. He is the kind of father that one is better off without. Well, in retrospect, sure. But that doesn’t mean the guy wasn’t a loving father to her before the shooting. Not only has she lost him to jail, but she’s also found out he’s a psycho murderer. How would you feel finding that out about someone you’d loved all your life? > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > By the way, what’s with the small case “i”? Just wondering. I can’t believe how many people ask about this. It’s simply that it’s easier not to hit “Shift” when it’s not necessary. I do it in informal comunications like the Dope and casual emails to friends and family. Some people get all weird about it; i even had one person suggest that it was some sort of inferiority complex on my part. Rest assured that this is not the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-and-self-defense-my-ass-wi-vs-vang/322375.md?page=3)