# Racism denial getting ridiculous **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 26, 2011, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412 "2011-12-26T11:43:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/121 "2012-01-06T02:15:56Z")
> [@j666](#): > > No, it is not semantic gamesmanship, it is two different but not unrelated issues. > > 1. Individuals who have preconceived and typically unfavorable opinions about people of a different racial ancestry. > > 2. A system of economic, political, and social structures that promote the well being of people of one racial ancestry over those of (an) other(s). > > These two issues have different causes, mechanisms, and effects. They are different. Number 2 is simply institutional racism. I agree that it differs from the racism of personal beliefs, but that is why it has a separate name. It is also why the claim that “[_persons of various ethnic backgrounds_] cannot be racist” is simply a semantic game. When the word racist is used without being modified by “institutional” or some other adjective, it conveys the meaning of personal racism. And, frankly, I have never heard the claim “I/he/they can’t be racist because I/he/they am/is/are victims” except in the context of personal racism. It is true that a person cannot be an institutional racist because a person is not an institution. And it might be accurate in a number of cases to say that a person who is the victim of racism (personal or institutional) cannot be a perpetrator of institutional racism, (although I suspect that we could find occasions where a victim in a larger situation could support institutional racism on a more local level). However, to say that any given person cannot be racist, (without some adjective such as institutional modifying “racist”), because they are the victim of racism, personal, institutional, or other, is simply wrong. It is engaging in semantic games. I would be curious to see a real life example of a claim that a particular person could not be racist that did not fit my experience. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/122 "2012-01-06T03:06:02Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Number 2 is simply institutional racism. I agree that it differs from the racism of personal beliefs, but that is why it has a separate name. … When the word racist is used without being modified by “institutional” or some other adjective, it conveys the meaning of personal racism. … Yes, one is personal racism, the other institutionalized racism; the only disagreement here seems to be which one gets to be used unmodified. Many people disagree with you on that point. I have only heard the argument that someone cannot be racist with respect to institutional racism, that is that the person in question does not belong to the group that the cultural structures favor. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/123 "2012-01-06T06:21:56Z")
> [@j666](#): > > Yes, one is personal racism, the other institutionalized racism; the only disagreement here seems to be which one gets to be used unmodified. Many people disagree with you on that point. Perhaps you could quote one of the “many” people, other than yourself–particularly in regard to declaring that some individual could not be racist due to their membership in one group or another? > [@j666](#): > > I have only heard the argument that someone cannot be racist with respect to institutional racism, that is that the person in question does not belong to the group that the cultural structures favor. I have never heard anyone declared incapable of racism because of institutional racism. Could you provide examples of such claims? ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/124 "2012-01-07T01:18:22Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Well, there’s [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/09/us/09hate.html) story that occurred more recently - June of 2011. > > If we’re still a country where a group of men can decide its ok to deliberately find a man, beat him to death, and then run him down in a truck just because his skin happens to be the “wrong” color, then “hypersensitive” is just the wrong word for race relations in the US. > > When we get to the point there are no racially motivated murders in the country, then maybe we can start claiming racism is overblown and people are hypersensitive about it. I’m sorry I missed this earlier. You seem to be implying that I am dismissive of all claims of racism. Believe me, I did not approve of, or dismiss, the church burning. But no one will ever convince me that Massachusetts officials tried to pull a Florida or that even they could believe that would have swung the election to the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/125 "2012-01-07T01:31:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by j666 > I have only heard the argument that someone cannot be racist with respect to institutional racism, that is that the person in question does not belong to the group that the cultural structures favor. > > I have never heard anyone declared incapable of racism because of institutional racism. Could you provide examples of such claims? There were no **‘such claims’** , there was one claim, of my personal experience. I most certainly cannot provide examples of something that **I have never witnessed**. If I could provide relevant examples from my own experience (which I can’t, because things that **don’t happen** tend not to leave much evidence), I would not because anecdote is not accepted as evidence here. You brought up the issue of the usage of the word ‘racism’ and I responded with my understanding of the word. Don’t quibble. It’s small. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/126 "2012-01-07T03:24:56Z")
> [@j666](#): > > There were no **‘such claims’** , there was one claim, of my personal experience. > > I most certainly cannot provide examples of something that **I have never witnessed**. > > If I could provide relevant examples from my own experience (which I can’t, because things that **don’t happen** tend not to leave much evidence), I would not because anecdote is not accepted as evidence here. > > You brought up the issue of the usage of the word ‘racism’ and I responded with my understanding of the word. > > Don’t quibble. It’s small. So, our entire exchange has been based on your interpretation of what one person said in your presence on one occasion? And I am quibbling? Alanis Morissette could have improved her song by substituting you for some of the poorer examples she used. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2012, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/127 "2012-01-07T03:51:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > So, our entire exchange has been based on your interpretation of what one person said in your presence on one occasion? And I am quibbling? Alanis Morissette could have improved her song by substituting you for some of the poorer examples she used. 😃 Stop putting words in my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412/128 "2012-01-10T03:39:02Z")
> [@j666](#): > > No, it is not semantic gamesmanship, it is two different but not unrelated issues. > > 1. Individuals who have preconceived and typically unfavorable opinions about people of a different racial ancestry. > > 2. A system of economic, political, and social structures that promote the well being of people of one racial ancestry over those of (an) other(s). > > These two issues have different causes, mechanisms, and effects. They are different. 1. This is basically basic pattern recognition that people employ [everyday](http://mises.org/daily/5090/What-Is-Prejudice). It is often helpful, as insurance companies show, to use statistical discrimination. A libertarian argues in favor of this here: > [@](#): > > In these kinds of cases, it is often perfectly legitimate to use group memberships (even characteristics like sex, race, age, etc.) as predictors for other characteristics of direct interest that are not available to us for observation — i.e., to use rational inference and discrimination. Doing so is not a derogation of the principle of judging people on their merits, so long as it involves a bona fide attempt to infer these individual characteristics from all the information that is available at the time. (In fact, it is the refusal to consider such proxy characteristics that constitutes the failure to properly assess the individual merits of the person using all the information available.) 1. In terms of structures that promote some groups over others, that clearly [occurs](http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2009/10/affirmative-action-numbers.html): > [@](#): > > US News: … Translating the advantages into SAT scores, study author Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton sociologist, calculated that African-Americans who achieved 1150 scores on the two original SAT tests had the same chances of getting accepted to top private colleges in 1997 as whites who scored 1460s and Asians who scored perfect 1600s. > > Espenshade found that when comparing applicants with similar grades, scores, athletic qualifications, and family history for seven elite private colleges and universities: > > Whites were three times as likely to get fat envelopes as Asians. Hispanics were twice as likely to win admission as whites. African-Americans were at least five times as likely to be accepted as whites. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-denial-getting-ridiculous/607412.md?page=6)