# Racism: How much gasoline is the media sprinkling on the fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 19, 2016, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420 "2016-11-19T14:48:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/41 "2016-11-21T20:06:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think I’ve asserted that it’s a problem – just that I’m concerned that it might be a problem. Basically, if most members of a particular group says “this thing affecting us is a problem”, then I think it’s reasonable to consider that they might be correct, especially if it’s a thing with a long history of negatively affecting them. Sure, they might be correct. Or they might not. If the members of that group have nothing to back them up besides anecdotes, most of which are either falsified or exaggerated, then it is fair to consider that they might not. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t mean concluding that they’re correct without further investigation, but in my view it also means that one should not conclude, as you appeared to (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that this is not a problem. I didn’t conclude that it wasn’t a problem without investigation. Hence all the statistics. There is no good evidence of widespread racism as a factor underlying police shootings. Read **MikeF** ’s cite. In the cases they studied of police shooting unarmed civilians, almost 70% of the incidents began when citizens made 911 calls reporting a crime in progress. or to report a person acting violent or crazy, and therefore the police had no opportunity to target anyone based on race. And no police agency that they studied had more than one incident of a traffic stop that turned deadly - the narrative of “racist cops busting folks for DWB and then shooting them” as an indication of a racist police culture simply does not appear to occur. > [@](#): > > I’m concerned that it might be a problem. There is very little evidence that it is a problem, and very much more that it isn’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/42 "2016-11-21T20:21:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > You may be right. Black people may get shot by the police in disproportionate numbers because they get into situations where the police shoot you in disproportionate numbers. > > So now the problem we need to address is “Why do black people get into those situations in disproportionate numbers?” You note that black people commit a disproportionate number of crimes. Why is that? Mostly because they are raised in households without the long-term presence of a father, and because they are poor. Most, although not all, of the disparity disappears in most negative social outcomes when you correct for the long-term presence of a father figure. > [@](#): > > Or is it that black people are more likely to live in environments that lead people to commit crimes? If that’s the case, why do black people live in those environments? Is it by choice or are there other factors which compel black people to live in bad environments? Yes. Blacks who commit crimes tend to cause where they live to become a high-crime area, which pushes others to commit crimes, which causes the police to increase their presence in the area and thus are more likely to encounter crimes, which causes them to shoot more criminals, which causes the friends and relatives of those shot to distrust and fear the police, which causes the police to fear and distrust those they are policing, which causes more shootings and to keep crime high. High-crime areas have trouble attracting and keeping businesses, which increases unemployment, which increases poverty, which increases crime, which increases police presence, which drives down property values, which attracts poor people, who create and participate in a culture of poverty and crime and welfare dependency. It’s as simple as that. > [@](#): > > But I don’t see anything here which says we should just ignore problems. I don’t either. As long as we know what the problem is, we should address it, if possible, in cost-effective ways. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/43 "2016-11-21T20:24:03Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Sure, they might be correct. Or they might not. If the members of that group have nothing to back them up besides anecdotes, most of which are either falsified or exaggerated, then it is fair to consider that they might not. > I didn’t conclude that it wasn’t a problem without investigation. Hence all the statistics. > > There is no good evidence of widespread racism as a factor underlying police shootings. Read **MikeF** ’s cite. In the cases they studied of police shooting unarmed civilians, almost 70% of the incidents began when citizens made 911 calls reporting a crime in progress. or to report a person acting violent or crazy, and therefore the police had no opportunity to target anyone based on race. And no police agency that they studied had more than one incident of a traffic stop that turned deadly - the narrative of “racist cops busting folks for DWB and then shooting them” as an indication of a racist police culture simply does not appear to occur. > There is very little evidence that it is a problem, and very much more that it isn’t. > > Regards, > Shodan I’ll agree that there’s little reason to believe the narrative of “racist cops busting folks for DWB and then shooting them”, but that’s a pretty low bar to clear. There are explanations that might involve some level of racism or other bias that fit all the cites (including from **MikeF** ) and stats – for example, cops might be, on average, just a little more likely to be afraid and draw their guns and pull the triggers around young black men. That’s very hard to measure – I’ve seen implicit bias stats indicating both directions – but it’s awfully hard to measure fear, since there’s no real fear in training and testing vs actual events in the field. So I don’t see the stats you mentioned as indicative one way or the other, especially since (as I’ve said) we really don’t know how disproportionate the shooting statistics are. I still wonder why you’re so ready to make a conclusion on this when we don’t know if cops disproportionately shoot black people (and it’s not just about shootings – we could add in concerns about tasings, beatings, etc.) at the same ratio (compared to white people) as black people are arrested or a much higher ratio. Assuming you accept that it was once true that cops mistreated black people in the US relatively frequently, why do you believe this? Was it statistics from the time (I’m not aware of any)? If not, why do you believe this was so? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/44 "2016-11-22T04:56:59Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’d need to see some cites for that. The entire premise of the book is that, in terms of violence, things today are much better than they are perceived and obviously the way news are reported play an important part in that state of affairs. There is an enormous reference section in the book, I don’t have it with me now, but it’s around 100 pages of small print references to support the arguments made in it. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Beyond that, I think you’re missing a trick; you’re comparing increased confidence in the police to OVERconfience in the police. They’re most likely linked, but I think you’re looking at two different scales here. I don’t see how or why “Confidence” and “Overconfidence” would be in different scales. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/45 "2016-11-22T05:15:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Note that I made no effort to drag the odd spikes in violence in a rather small number of cities into the discussion. Note also that you moved the goalposts rather far. I did not suggest comparison of violent acts, generally, but of violent acts by police against unarmed citizens. But you can’t ignore the underlying reality. If black people commit crime at a disproportionate rate then we expect a disproportionate amount of interactions with police and a disproportionate level of police violence. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Really? You actually believe that sending in more police justifies the police shooting more innocent people rather than indicating that the shooting of more innocent people indicates a serious need for better training for police? Of course. It’s simple math. If an event comes with a risk of a negative consequence then increasing the number of those events will increase the number of negative consequences. > [@tomndebb](#): > > So, if we rely on anecdotes and hypotheticals, the situation gets better? I’m not persuaded. Incident reports aren’t anecdotes and realistic simulations aren’t hypotheticals. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I already noted that some police are killing unarmed whites. However, to identify how bad the reality is and to determine whether there is a racial component to the situation, we actually need those statistics you so cavalierly dismissed. What we need is an accurate picture of what is going on. Raw statistics are meaningless without the correct context. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/46 "2016-11-22T13:59:07Z")
> [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](#): > > Whenever I see a headline such as _Unarmed black man shot by cop_ I feel society taking a step backwards in the racism game… > > I don’t believe I have ever seen a headline where the Caucasian victim was identified by race; often not even in the story. _ **Cite for the headline, please?** _ My impression is that mention of race is often avoided in stories, let alone headlines. Anyway, I disapprove of cops shooting unarmed men, whether black or not, and think such stories should get attention. Are you objecting to the story? Or just to identification of victim’s race in the headline? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/47 "2016-11-22T15:00:04Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > _ **Cite for the headline, please?** _ My impression is that mention of race is often avoided in stories, let alone headlines. Your impression is wrong. > [@MikeF](#): > > In a fairly recent study done by StreetCred Software, it was found that the media was four times as likely to report the race of both officer and suspect if the suspect was black as opposed to some other race. The cite for the statement is in his post. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/48 "2016-11-22T18:03:18Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > Here is an interactive [database](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database) about this. You can select for race, gender, cause of death and generate your own results. Interesting that Native Americans top the list even though we are what, 1% of the population. But, much like what is happening now at Standing Rock, we get ignored except for at Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/49 "2016-11-23T16:12:30Z")
Something to consider: alt Right asshole Richard Spencer had a gathering of under 200 people the other day. Got that? Under 200. That is a non-story by any definition. Naturally, every liberal reporter in America was there, giving Spencer invaluable publicity. Why? This was an insignificant event. Spencer got to pretend that his group was important, and the press got to do a “Booga Booga! The KKK is back” story. Both the left and the far right have an interest in pretending the far right is more prominent than it really is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/50 "2016-11-23T16:36:51Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Something to consider: alt Right asshole Richard Spencer had a gathering of under 200 people the other day. Got that? Under 200. That is a non-story by any definition. > > Naturally, every liberal reporter in America was there, giving Spencer invaluable publicity. > > Why? This was an insignificant event. Spencer got to pretend that his group was important, and the press got to do a “Booga Booga! The KKK is back” story. > > Both the left and the far right have an interest in pretending the far right is more prominent than it really is. Considering the success of Breitbart news, and considering the widespread belief in racist conspiracy theories according to various polls, and considering that over 50,000 voters in Louisiana voted for frickin’ David Duke this month, then I think the numbers are more significant than you’re indicating. Further, it’s not just about those open white supremacists (like David Duke and his supporters, or Richard Spencer’s conference of assholes) – it’s also about the much larger number of voters without white supremacist beliefs but without much of an interest in opposing white supremacism. Apathy about racism is nearly as bad as racism, and much more common. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/51 "2016-11-23T17:56:00Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Further, it’s not just about those open white supremacists (like David Duke and his supporters, or Richard Spencer’s conference of assholes) – it’s also about the much larger number of voters without white supremacist beliefs but without much of an interest in opposing white supremacism. Apathy about racism is nearly as bad as racism, and much more common. After all, it’s much more disrespectful and hurtful to call someone a racist than it is to actually be one… ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2016, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/52 "2016-11-23T18:10:18Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering the success of Breitbart news, and considering the widespread belief in racist conspiracy theories according to various polls, and considering that over 50,000 voters in Louisiana voted for frickin’ David Duke this month, then I think the numbers are more significant than you’re indicating. > > Further, it’s not just about those open white supremacists (like David Duke and his supporters, or Richard Spencer’s conference of assholes) – it’s also about the much larger number of voters without white supremacist beliefs but without much of an interest in opposing white supremacism. Apathy about racism is nearly as bad as racism, and much more common. Crying “wolf!” at every passing shadow generates apathy, wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/53 "2016-11-23T18:51:04Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Crying “wolf!” at every passing shadow generates apathy, wouldn’t you agree? Perhaps, and so does ignoring and downplaying actual instances of racism. I oppose any baseless accusations of racism, and I oppose ignoring or downplaying actual instances of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/54 "2016-11-24T01:23:55Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Something to consider: alt Right asshole Richard Spencer had a gathering of under 200 people the other day. Got that? Under 200. That is a non-story by any definition. :dubious: You sound as though you think it was some kind of fringe street rally instead of a planned conference. Spencer is not just some random loon handing out flyers to strangers. The point of covering the NPI conference is not to point out that there are at least a couple hundred self-identified fascist racists in the US (which indeed is no news): it’s to spotlight the growing **institutional support** and **cultural mainstreaming** of fascist racism. The conference was sponsored by the white-nationalist organization National Policy Institute, whose president Spencer is a former assistant editor at the journal _American Conservative_, and which was founded by wealthy scion William Regnery II of the Regnery right-wing publishing dynasty. Key speakers at the conference included Peter Brimelow, a former senior editor at _National Review_. These people are not mainstream conservatism, but they’re rapidly establishing themselves as a recognized and legitimate branch of conservatism. That’s the part that’s news. ---
**Author:** ![bomberswarm2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c37758/32.png) [@bomberswarm2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bomberswarm2)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/55 "2016-11-24T03:19:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > A black man is 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police than a white man is. That’s not something you can write off as a statistical fluke. And if getting killed because of your race isn’t a form of real racism, I have a hard time imagining where you’ve set the bar. Because black people commit more crimes, because their racist idiot parents and teachers tell them “All white people are evil, you should hate white people”. How many times were they actually killed because of race? You’re just a super racist divisionist. Notice how when the republicans are in power there are no race problems? That’s because Republicans treat everyone equally, unlike Democrats who want to give minorities more rights than they already have, and continue to oppress white people. So maybe you should open your eyes and think before making baseless statements. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/56 "2016-11-24T03:30:24Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > Because black people commit more crimes, because their racist idiot parents and teachers tell them “All white people are evil, you should hate white people”. > How many times were they actually killed because of race? You’re just a super racist divisionist. Notice how when the republicans are in power there are no race problems? That’s because Republicans treat everyone equally, unlike Democrats who want to give minorities more rights than they already have, and continue to oppress white people. > So maybe you should open your eyes and think before making baseless statements. You make it very hard not to get myself banned because of the wrongheaded admin decision to coddle Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/57 "2016-11-24T03:54:08Z")
> [@bomberswarm2](#): > > You’re just a super racist divisionist. I can’t tell if this part is directed personally because it was in the middle of the rest of the rant. Please avoid personal insults toward other posters. If you feel you must then The Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/58 "2016-11-24T04:02:00Z")
[QUOTE=bomberswarm2] You’re just a super racist divisionist [/QUOTE] Or, as the kids say, _“No racist! No racist! You’re the racist!”_ I like\* how the guy who just broadbrushed black people in general as having “racist idiot parents and teachers” is accusing somebody **else** of being “divisionist”, though. :dubious: - Actually it’s not really all that likeable. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/59 "2016-11-24T04:10:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > You make it very hard not to get myself banned because of the wrongheaded admin decision to coddle Nazis. Is it hard not to get banned when many on the left here characterize Trump supporters much the same way? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420/60 "2016-11-24T04:29:36Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Is it hard not to get banned when many on the left here characterize Trump supporters much the same way? Walks, talks, quacks… _shrug_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-how-much-gasoline-is-the-media-sprinkling-on-the-fire/772420.md?page=4)