# Racism in writing fantasy: Does it exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 29, 2014, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019 "2014-01-29T06:13:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2014, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/81 "2014-02-01T23:53:33Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > The Tate family, a family of dwarfs in Glen Cook’s “Garrett PI” series are pretty aggressive penny pinchers, and I haven’t heard any charges of racism. The Tates aren’t dwarves, unless my memory is seriously shaken. But anyway, I was just talking about the dwarf the OP described. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/82 "2014-02-02T00:14:13Z")
Check the covers of the paperbacks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/83 "2014-02-02T00:22:50Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > Check the covers of the paperbacks. They’re short, but if they’re dwarves then I’ve missed it! ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/84 "2014-02-02T02:43:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think you have to be very careful with a Dwarvish Fagin character, just as you’ll have to be very character with your black character. Any scenes with your dwarf counting coins might be a bit unfortunate, to say the least. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/85 "2014-02-02T16:12:36Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I really want to read a story in which Conan checks into a hotel. > **[Shadows in Zamboula by Robert E. Howard](https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42196)** > > Free kindle book and epub digitized and proofread by volunteers. Enjoy!(Ok ok it is a tavern, but it is basically a hotel). ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/86 "2014-02-02T16:37:35Z")
About 15 years ago, I tried to run a D&D campaign where ‘racism’ was blatant and hard wired. After all, you’re talking a world with hundreds of intelligent races. Racism against different Humans because they wear funny clothing, speak a strange language and break the egg open from the wrong end? _pfft_ What is that to the fact that there are Orcs over the hills who routinely raid and kill your people. Elves who consider themselves above you? Illithid to whom you are only food? Of course, the players all wanted to play the most ridiculous races, in contravention of the dire warnings in the setup materials. :rolleyes: No, you can’t play a half-troll in a world where every village will try to set you on fire at the mere sight of you. Racism in that kind of world is exactly that - Race-ism. There are a few friendly races (who you still probably keep at arms length) and the vast horde of scary Other. In fact, it’s one of the things that bugs me about later editions of D&D - the commonality of all these different races existing side by side, usually without much more than a side note about difficulties between them. PC parties being six different races, some of which would surely draw megatons of fear from any farming village they passed through. (We had one where I was Half-Elf, then we had a Bugbear, a Tiefling, a Revanant, a Dragonborn and a Pixie. Seriously. And the module had us invited to high class social situations.) In short, many different humanoid/intelligent races means human/individual race differences get minimized or glossed over because the Other is _really other_. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/87 "2014-02-02T16:39:56Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > I’m sorry, but the grudging tone of this statement is unintentionally hilarious. Lovecraft was incredibly racist! We’re talking about a guy who named his cat Nigger-Man. He also thought Hitler was a reasonable bloke. That is pretty fucking racist, y’all. Hell, **other white people in the 1920s** thought he was taking it a bit far. That’s one of those ‘accomplishments’ that boggles the mind to grasp, like being too much of a drunk to be in Metallica! It’s not so much a grudging tone as just restating what I know for sure. I have read a great deal of HPL’s work, but I know virtually nothing about him as a person. He was male, alive in the early 1900’s and I’m pretty sure was American. I qualified the statement the way I did because I’m not going to assume that someone was racist throughout their entire life just because they wrote a racist poem at one point in their life. All I know for sure is that he was racist at that point. If it turned out to be the equivalent of a college prank, or if he saw the light and championed civil rights in his dotage, I’d hate to incorrectly characterize his whole life via that single fact. I’m sure there’s a more detailed author’s bio in several of the books I own, but I obviously haven’t bothered to read it. This is actually the case for most of the fiction writers I read. Probably that’s due to the fact that what I learn is disappointing more often than not, such as in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/88 "2014-02-02T16:53:30Z")
I can’t retroactively hate people for being a product of their time and upbringing. If the man was alive today, he’d be reviled as a racist ass. In his time and social circle, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/89 "2014-02-02T17:12:48Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > About 15 years ago, I tried to run a D&D campaign where ‘racism’ was blatant and hard wired… This reminds me of a campaign I ran using Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play back in the day. This mixed group of PCs, in their very first actions in character, walks right into a tavern, ignoring my warnings about character selection, ignoring the signs put up by the town that non-humans weren’t welcome, ignoring the bouncer that said “We don’t like your kind here.” And then they were shocked when a bunch of drunks beat the crap out of them, stripped them naked and dumped them in a pile of manure outside of town. After all, this was a tolerant, peace-loving town that didn’t hold with unnecessary hangings. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/90 "2014-02-03T03:02:33Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > This reminds me of a campaign I ran using Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play back in the day. This mixed group of PCs, in their very first actions in character, walks right into a tavern, ignoring my warnings about character selection, ignoring the signs put up by the town that non-humans weren’t welcome, ignoring the bouncer that said “We don’t like your kind here.” > > And then they were shocked when a bunch of drunks beat the crap out of them, stripped them naked and dumped them in a pile of manure outside of town. After all, this was a tolerant, peace-loving town that didn’t hold with unnecessary hangings. That must have been awesome. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/91 "2014-02-03T05:12:04Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > That must have been awesome. It was! Once I snap new players out of the player-centric, hack-and-slash mindset that most groups favor, they start thinking of the game as having real people and factions. Once a character stops being a Watchman #3 and starts becoming a teenage town guardsman who’s not racist himself, but he has a demanding wife and a toddler to support and a particular circle of co-workers who’d be unhappy if he showed his real feelings. Now you’ve got someone you can make into a friend or an enemy, depending on how you treat him. It’s the kind of thing that established my reputation as a GM. On more than one occasion, someone I’d never met found me and asked to join in my campaigns because of what they’d heard from other players. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2014, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/92 "2014-02-03T05:34:53Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > . . . On more than one occasion, someone I’d never met found me and asked to join in my campaigns because of what they’d heard from other players. I say, might I join in your campaigns? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/93 "2014-02-04T00:22:23Z")
Related to this topic; I found[this blog post](http://http://onelastsketch.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/semitic-dwarves/) a few months back. It makes a lot of good points about dwarves, Judaism and anti-Semitism (although it’s a bit unfortunate IMO that he seems to associate the main connection between dwarves and Judaism to be “love of gold.” That said, it’s probably more likely that he was referring to the anti-Semitic miser stereotype. Now what makes it really interesting would be if dwarves didn’t all look like the stereotype (hooked nose, short, hairy) and all looked really really different. For example, originally dwarves could be (or were) human-sized. The blogger is right that the “Tolkien dwarf” rarely turns up in fantasy fiction and the Scottish dwarf is often the substitute. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/94 "2014-02-04T00:34:25Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > Related to this topic; > I found[this blog post](http://http://onelastsketch.wordpress.com/2011/09/02/semitic-dwarves/) a few months back. It makes a lot of good points about dwarves, Judaism and anti-Semitism (although it’s a bit unfortunate IMO that he seems to associate the main connection between dwarves and Judaism to be “love of gold.” That said, it’s probably more likely that he was referring to the anti-Semitic miser stereotype. > > Now what makes it really interesting would be if dwarves didn’t all look like the stereotype (hooked nose, short, hairy) and all looked really really different. For example, originally dwarves could be (or were) human-sized. > The blogger is right that the “Tolkien dwarf” rarely turns up in fantasy fiction and the Scottish dwarf is often the substitute. _consider_. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/95 "2014-02-04T19:02:47Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > I can’t retroactively hate people for being a product of their time and upbringing. If the man was alive today, he’d be reviled as a racist ass. In his time and social circle, not so much. Yes, I agree. I call it “presentism”. But HPL may have crossed the line even for his time and social circle. On the gripping hand, taking quote out of context is not the best way to judge a man. Judge him more by his actions & deeds, than by his words. JRRT, otoh, was quite liberal for his time. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/96 "2014-02-05T05:01:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, I agree. I call it “presentism”. But HPL may have crossed the line even for his time and social circle. On the gripping hand, taking quote out of context is not the best way to judge a man. Judge him more by his actions & deeds, than by his words. > > JRRT, otoh, was quite liberal for his time. Exactly. On another point I’m surprised no-one has mentioned _The Iron Dream_ yet. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2014, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/97 "2014-02-05T23:58:13Z")
Any comments on the blogpost I linked to? ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/98 "2014-02-06T14:22:01Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > Any comments on the blogpost I linked to? How come the date on the post above this one is “5-2-2014” instead of “Yesterday?” A glitch? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/99 "2014-02-06T22:14:05Z")
> [@Morwen Edhelwen](#): > > How come the date on the post above this one is “5-2-2014” instead of “Yesterday?” A glitch? Your time zone might not be the same as the SDMB’s time zone. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019/100 "2014-02-06T22:55:14Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > I’m sorry, but the grudging tone of this statement is unintentionally hilarious. Lovecraft was incredibly racist! We’re talking about a guy who named his cat Nigger-Man. He also thought Hitler was a reasonable bloke. That is pretty fucking racist, y’all. Hell, **other white people in the 1920s** thought he was taking it a bit far. That’s one of those ‘accomplishments’ that boggles the mind to grasp, like being too much of a drunk to be in Metallica! One gets the impression that Lovecraft was racist against pretty well all races. Rural Whites and Urban Scandanavian Immigrants trigger an almost allergic reaction of loathing from him, just like Blacks, Orientals, Jews and, well, allimmigrants (never mind that he married a woman from an immigrant Jewish family! Or maybe that fits :eek: ). He hated Blacks and Asians the most it would appear, but he certainly had bile enough and to spare for everyone, so it is sometimes hard to tell. 😃 Sort of like noting that the guy in Metallica is sure messed up, but it isn’t at all clear if he is more drunk or drugged, it is hard to seperate out the strands of Lovecraft’s essential misanthropy. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-in-writing-fantasy-does-it-exist/680019.md?page=6)