# Racism through the eyes of a European footballer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2004, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254 "2004-11-23T09:25:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/21 "2004-11-24T13:38:25Z")
\*. . . 200 year period of active race based slavery. . . \* ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/22 "2004-11-24T13:40:19Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > And it wasn’t just “trading and exploring” - the Moors _conquered_ Sicily and the Iberian peninsula for centuries, and only left in the Middle Ages. But the moors weren’t black. I’m not sure from where this common misconception comes. The traditionnal depiction of Othello? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/23 "2004-11-24T13:53:38Z")
> [@](#): > > But the moors weren’t black. They would be to those who monkey-hooted at Asley Cole, Jermaine Jenas, Rio Ferdinand, Roberto Carlos or any other player who is not literally the colour of a sub-saharan African (which some of the Moors _were_, having sub-saharan ancestry themselves) such as Shaun Wright-Phillips, Samuel Eto’o or Patrick Viera. We _Dopers_ know that “black” is a largely useless taxonomic descriptor, but it is still perhaps useful in highlighting the hypocrisy of racist imbeciles. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/24 "2004-11-24T14:03:33Z")
It seemed that skin tone was the issue - Sean Wright Phillips (who has dark skin) got much worse treatment than for example Rio ferdinand and Ashley cole who have much paler complexions. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/25 "2004-11-24T14:16:31Z")
Melanin bad! Sunshine dilutes our purity! Lynch the epidemists! ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/26 "2004-11-24T14:44:22Z")
What SERIOUSLY gets my goat is that FIFA/UEFA wouldn’t have done anything about this without being prompted, but woebetide England if their fans do so much as chuck some cheap patio furniture about. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/27 "2004-11-24T14:44:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But the moors weren’t black. I’m not sure from where this common misconception comes. The traditionnal depiction of Othello? They ALL weren’t black, but I would imagine some were. I was always under the impression that the Moors came in a variety of colors. Where do you consider the traditional ‘homeland’ of the moors? ---
**Author:** ![marky33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@marky33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marky33)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/28 "2004-11-24T14:55:27Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > They ALL weren’t black, but I would imagine some were. I believe the surname Blackmore (as in Ritchie) derives from these very fellows. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/29 "2004-11-24T17:03:38Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > They ALL weren’t black, but I would imagine some were. I was always under the impression that the Moors came in a variety of colors. > > Where do you consider the traditional ‘homeland’ of the moors? From the Encyclopedia Britannica > [@](#): > > **Moor** > in English usage, a Moroccan or, formerly, a member of the Muslim population of Spain, of mixed Arab, Spanish, and Berber origins, who created the Arab Andalusian civilization and subsequently settled as refugees in North Africa between the 11th and 17th centuries. > . . . > The word derives from the Latin Mauri, first used by the Romans to denote the inhabitants of the Roman province of Mauretania, comprising the western portion of modern Algeria and the northeastern portion of modern Morocco. Note that the Southwestern, coastal regions of the current country of Morocco do not figure into the assessment of the ethnic groups referred to as Moors (although in some European languages, moor or _maure_ is associated with the more southern modern nation (not the Roman province) of Mauretania). (And this doesn’t even touch on the issue that the really significant invasion of Sicily from Africa was carried out by the Vandals, Eastern Europeans who had made a great spiral march from the Danube basin crossing north of Italy to Spain, then across to North Africa, and then back to Sicily without ever wandering far into the interior of the Sahara, much less to the south of it.) ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/30 "2004-11-24T19:59:18Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Meanwhile, the fallout from the weekend’s stormy Old Firm clash continues with Rangers’ Spanish player Nacho Novo the subject of a [death threat](http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/4035287.stm). Which is not acceptable behaviour, but there is no reason to believe it is racist. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/31 "2004-11-24T22:46:14Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Maybe this will sound like a stereotype, maybe not. The image of the British tends to be of a people who, despite their sometimes strange ways (warm beer, heavy foods for breakfast, etc) [aside] Britons do not serve their beer warm. They serve their beer at room temperature. Let me assure you, in Britain, room temperature is _not warm_. [/aside] ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2004, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/32 "2004-11-24T23:38:58Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > From the Encyclopedia Britannica > (And this doesn’t even touch on the issue that the really significant invasion of Sicily from Africa was carried out by the Vandals, Eastern Europeans who had made a great spiral march from the Danube basin crossing north of Italy to Spain, then across to North Africa, and then back to Sicily without ever wandering far into the interior of the Sahara, much less to the south of it.) I hope the OP will forgive this outrageous hijacking of the thread, but my mind boggles. _What in the world did they do this for?_ Gold and glory? Were they just really, really bored and looking for a little excitement? Had they just gotten tired of Eastern European winters? Did they just have a really, really bad case of wander lust? Did they settle down and make themselves at home, or were they merely raiding? What could possibly have motivated them to make such a trek? Again, please forgive the hijack, but I gotta know! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/33 "2004-11-25T00:13:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*What in the world did they do this for? Gold and glory? \* Pretty much. The Vandals were one of many Germanic, Goth, and other Eastern groups who overran the western Roman Empire at the beginning of the fifth century. The Vandals staked out their land grab in the Roman region of Andalusia on the Iberian peninsula. Before they could put down any serious roots, they decided that Europe was too crowded with the rest of the Eastern bunches fighting each other, so they looked over at (as yet untouched) Roman Africa and picked up in a body and moved there in 429. (Among their victims was the city of Hippo where the theologian and bishop Augustine died of illness during their siege.) The Vandals kept the Roman peasantry in place, becoming the new landlords and aristocracy. Having taken all of Western North Africa, in 440 the Vandals launched raids and attempts at conquest from Carthage, initially conquering Sicily and actually sacking Rome in 455 (thus giving 18th century historians an excuse to equate their name to acts of pillage and destruction). The Romans had a brief recovery under Justinian when Belisarius defeated the Vandal kingdom(s) from 533 to 545, but Rome could not hold on. The Arab, Berber, and Tuareg and related peoples of North Africa used the weakening of authority in the Roman-Vandal war to build up their own strength (much as the Eastern tribes had marched on Rome in Europe) and began taking land from both the Vandals and Romans (or Byzantines as they effectively were by then). (I did get their point of origin wrong. They seem to have arisen west of the Vistual rather than farther south near the Danube.) ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/34 "2004-11-25T10:39:13Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Football is about the only sport I bother watching. I don’t want it sanitized, feminised or bambified, to be a fit show for companies to advertise in, American puritan viewers or middle class sentiments. I fear coming down hard on such instances, however good in intention, will destroy the soul of the game. Which is a fine if you’re a straight white male . For others, the “sanitisation” of football can’t come quickly enough. > [@Punoqllads](#): > > [aside] > Britons do not serve their beer warm. They serve their beer at room temperature. Let me assure you, in Britain, room temperature is _not warm_. > [/aside] Say what? The most popular style of beer in the UK is lager. Lager is refrigerated, even in winter. (And pubs are heated, so room temperature is usually sweltering.) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/35 "2004-11-25T11:22:13Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > But the moors weren’t black. I’m not sure from where this common misconception comes. The traditionnal depiction of Othello? Contemporary documents, at least from central and northern Europe, use ‘black’, ‘moor’ and ‘blackamoor’ interchangeably. > [@Jervoise](#): > > Say what? The most popular style of beer in the UK is lager. Lager is refrigerated, even in winter. Get back to your Carling. Lager != beer. And beer isn’t served at room temperature, but at cellar temperature. ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/36 "2004-11-25T14:49:14Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Get back to your Carling. Lager != beer. Look! It’s England’s last surviving drinker of bitter! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/37 "2004-11-25T15:34:54Z")
> [@Jervoise](#): > > Look! It’s England’s last surviving drinker of bitter! 😛 There’s quite a few of us still around, just mainly outside of the M25 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2004, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/38 "2004-11-25T15:43:31Z")
> [@Jervoise](#): > > Which is a fine if you’re a straight white male . For others, the “sanitisation” of football can’t come quickly enough. Well. Then we’ll just have to agree to disagree. I’m sure there are less rough football clubs out there that cater to more refined tastes than mine, perhaps the women’s league. Perhaps we can also agree to accept each other preferences and not force each other to change their preferred game. Of course if it’s [this](http://www.strangecosmos.com/content/item/102912.html) kind of sanitization you had in mind rather than speech and clothing guidelines. Heck, bring it on. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/39 "2004-11-26T00:19:45Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Pretty much. The Vandals were one of many Germanic, Goth, and other Eastern groups who overran the western Roman Empire at the beginning of the fifth century … Thanks for the reply, Tom, I honestly appreciate it. However, thinking back on it, I realize I could easily have looked this up myself on the net, and I apologize for making you do my homework.I also apologize to the OP once again for hijacking his thread. (Honest, folks, usually my manners are better than that … ) ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254/40 "2004-11-26T04:56:08Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > On a related not, I was once told that “YAHOO” or some other still common cry (forget which) was a Latin acronym for something like “It Was We who Burned Jerusalem” which, after the sack of Jerusalem, the Romans used to shout at the Jews when they watched them in the Colleseum being burned, thrown to the lions or raped by bulls or whatever fun they could think of. The Romans were also quite crazy about their chariot racing teams, which had fan clubs which would class violently in the streets. I think this has been going on for many many years. I think that’s actually “Hep,” which in some quarters meant “Hierusalem Est Perdito” (“Jerusalem is destroyed”). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism-through-the-eyes-of-a-european-footballer/276254.md?page=3)