# Racism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2013, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744 "2013-07-17T12:06:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/21 "2013-07-18T15:02:53Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Saying a person is black is not racist it is describing it’s skin color, Just as saying a blue eyed person has blue eyes. > > I know a lot of Black people and they are just as good and in some cases better than me. I have grand nieces that are black and in reality the only truly white people are usually sick, Most whites are more tannish than white. Even some black people are not truly black but dark skinned. There is good and bad in all people. It isn’t because of their color etc.. > > We were robbed several times and it wasn’t by a black skinned person. Most serial killers are so called white. all American’s are not patriotic and some are bigoted, the same goes for all people of nationality, religions etc. because a label is put on some bad people regardless of their origin, doesn’t mean all people are bad. I was not implying that you failed to observe that different people have different melatonin levels. As others have said, using skin tone as dividing mark between races is biologically invalid and in fact using any genetic factor to divide human beings into separate races is biologically questionable at the very least. But that does not change the fact that race is just as real a social construct in the U.S. as the caste system is in India. Did you read the two links I provided? The first was about studies showing that even people who profess no racial animus or prejudice tend to shoot potential threats with dark skin faster and more often. The other was looking at the actual behavior of people who report color [blind attitudes](http://news.illinois.edu/news/10/0421online.html): > [@](#): > > “People who reported higher racial color-blind attitudes were more likely to be white, and more likely to condone or not be bothered by racial-theme party images,” Tynes said. “In fact, some even encouraged the photos by adding comments of their own such as ‘Where’s the Colt 45?’ or ‘Party like a rock star.’ ” Not to get to far into it, but saying racism is over or that you don’t see race is only really possible from the privileged side of the divide. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/22 "2013-07-18T21:22:40Z")
Melanin. Melatonin has to do with regulating sleep. ---
**Author:** ![mo50](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@mo50](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mo50)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/23 "2013-07-19T00:51:02Z")
Hey, I’m no legal expert or anything, but what has amazed me most in this case is that this guy (Zimmerman) was allowed to walk around with a concealed weapon legally. Then, as “neighborhood watchman”, he was effectively the self-appointed judge, jury, and executioner. Where I live (New York), just walking around with a gun like that is a crime, unless you have a damn good reason and have a carry permit. Not saying that’s right or wrong, just reality. It’s really a different country. Yes, race played a role. Because of the history of racism and Jim Crow in this country, (and their myriad historical effects), blacks are more likely to commit, and be victims of, violent crime. Therefore, yes, they are unfairly profiled by those in law enforcement, and wanabees like George Zimmerman. This was a senseless tragedy. Zimmerman seems like a halfway decent person who was wrong to pursue Martin and provoke the whole altercation. Martin didn’t know who this person was and defended himself. Zimmerman had the gun. I’d have to guess that if Zimmerman wasn’t armed, he would’nt have been emboldened to chase this kid in the first place. All I can say is God Bless both sets of parents, this is a horror for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/24 "2013-07-19T01:27:19Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Saying a person is black is not racist it is describing it’s skin color, Just as saying a blue eyed person has blue eyes. It? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/25 "2013-07-19T03:27:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > “Races” may not exist, but there are very large groups of people with reproductively persistent physical traits – skin color, the shape of the eyes, the shape of the jaw, height, etc. – and we refer to these as “races.” > > If you selected 100 Hopi and 100 Navajo, at random, from all the people who self-identify as Hopi and Navajo (yes, I know, Diné) then, yes, there might be a few white-skinned, blue-eyed people in there that no one could visually distinguish from German or Dutch. But someone who’s lived in Navajo lands for a while could correctly identify most of those people, sorting the Navajo and the Hopi. The peoples are still sufficiently reproductively isolated as to maintain sufficient distinctions of bodily traits. This statistical distinction allows us to refer to discrimination on its basis as racism. That is a complete load of bollocks. We’ve been over this in [previous threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=674550&page=5), so I know that you know that it isn’t true. The fact that this was explained to you politely in previous threads, yet you keep exactly the same nonsense into new threads is irksome, to say the least. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/26 "2013-07-19T03:52:44Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But someone who’s lived in Navajo lands for a while could correctly identify most of those people, sorting the Navajo and the Hopi. How? ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/27 "2013-07-19T04:21:42Z")
I’m having a hard time pinning down the OP. It seems to be talking about jury selection? ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/28 "2013-07-19T05:05:10Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I agree it is my beliefs, and I could be wrong about a lot of things, But it is my right to think as I do. None of that means that you’re not wrong. > [@](#): > > I have read that evolution states were are all from a common ancestor. So? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/29 "2013-07-19T11:43:31Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It? Guess I should have written who or whom? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/30 "2013-07-19T11:44:44Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > None of that means that you’re not wrong. > > So? So it means we are all from the same race, the human race. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/31 "2013-07-19T13:08:17Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Guess I should have written who or whom? Well, I guess it’s up to you. On the other hand, most of us non-racist people tend to not refer to a Black person as _it_. Racism, of course, is the act of dehumanizing in the racist’s mind another person. The word _it_ is kind of handy sometimes for doing that very same thing. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/32 "2013-07-19T13:50:59Z")
1. Many, or most, -isms are the result of confirmation bias. A white person sees on the news that there’s a young black male convicted of gangbanging. That plants a seed, and in that white person’s mind, all young black males suddenly become gangbangers. A man has an issue with his wife’s driving; thus, women can’t drive. A woman has a gay friend who is effeminate; thus, all gay men are effeminate. That’s a problem. The problem cuts both ways, though. When your starting position on the United States and its criminal justice system is that it is inherently racist, then the acquittal of a defendant like Zimmerman simply confirms for you what you already thought to be true. It doesn’t help that the powers that be (whether that be the media, the prosecution, Sharpton/Jackson/Crump, etc.) painted Zimmerman as a racist before the trial ever even began, with NBC going as far as editing the recording of his call to the NEN to make it appear that he “profiled” Martin. 1. How in the world are we supposed to even rationally discuss the problem (and there is, in fact, a problem to palaver over) when the majority is not allowed the freedom to join the discussion? As soon as a white person agrees to the discussion and presents an opinion, it’s dismissed with an eyeroll and the position of “easy for you to say with your white privilege.” Uh…okay? So, where do we go from here, then? Again, the underlying insinuation is based on assumption: that the white person has not, and by definition _cannot_, know what it’s like to be in the minority’s position. Leaving aside that such thinking is a judgment based on race in and of itself, there’s a genuine curiosity and frustration on “our” side: what are we supposed to do? 1. Stipulating, as above, that there **is** a problem to discuss (and having established which element to focus on: the disproportionate number of blacks in prison, the acquittal of white defendants, etc.) wouldn’t it seem reasonable to focus on cases where there is little to no doubt that race was, in fact, a key element in the crime? I know a lot of people on the board _think, feel, or believe_ that Zimmerman is a racist who profiled Martin and hated black people–notwithstanding the evidence to the contrary, such as his history of relationships with blacks, mentoring, and the testimony of Martin’s stepmother that even she didn’t believe Trayvon was profiled for his race–but there’s simply no evidence for his alleged racism. The simple fact that he killed a black person does not, in and of itself, mean anything, anymoreso than the simple fact that a black person kills a hispanic, a white person, or a black person, means anything in and of itself. Human beings kill one another all the time, and while there are cases of it happening based on an -ism (James Byrd, Jr., Matthew Shepherd) the plain truth is that, more often than not, killing is the result of simple meanness. I tend to be pretty liberal on most issues. I believe in a woman’s right to choose, that gay people should be able to get married and have all the rights afforded to straight couples, that we all–black, white, yellow or purple–have the right to defend ourselves with force or deadly force. And I do my best to recognize the imperfections in our society. But here’s the thing: the #justice crowd is doing themselves a disservice, especially right now. The Zimmerman trial introduced enough evidence to illustrate that there never was a case for racial profiling. Yet, for whatever reason, they’re sticking to their guns and demanding Federal action, still calling GZ a “murderer,” hoping for a civil suit, all the way up to putting a bounty on GZ’s head. To a man, this whole ordeal has been a matter of crying wolf. It was made into a cause before the facts were evident. And now, to the average observer, it is obvious that there was no cause to begin with. The #justice folks had their emotions manipulated, they were presented with the wrong ‘facts,’ they made up their minds, and nothing will make them believe that the case was a simple matter of self-defense–whether they agree with FL law or not. So what happens next time? Would it not be fair to say that because of this whole circus, the average citizen will be reluctant to believe the claims of racism, unless/until there’s undeniable proof of it? And further, because of the behavior of people after the verdict, would it not be fair to say that the average observer will believe that it’s not about justice after all, but vengeance? And then there will be the complaints that the real problem isn’t being taken seriously. Well, that may be true, but you have to own up to the fact that that’s partly/mostly your own doing. This whole fiasco has poisoned the well. You’re welcome to disagree, of course, and I’m sure there’ll be (tl;dr = white privilege) responses. And that only confirms the point. It’s tragic. ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/33 "2013-07-19T15:14:21Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > So it means we are all from the same race, the human race. No, it doesn’t. No more than it means there are no differences between humans and chimps, because we descended from a common ancestor with them. And even if there were no biological differences whatsoever between racial groups, there are still social constructs that create numerous systems of races. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/34 "2013-07-20T16:13:47Z")
> [@akennett](#): > > No, it doesn’t. No more than it means there are no differences between humans and chimps, because we descended from a common ancestor with them. > > And even if there were no biological differences whatsoever between racial groups, there are still social constructs that create numerous systems of races. Most of the Biology I studied; our ancestors all came out of Africa, and the people with more melatonin could take hot temperatures the ones who migrated to places in cooler climates were light skinned because they could take cold better. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/35 "2013-07-20T17:08:08Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > How? I see what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/36 "2013-07-21T03:02:18Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There has been a lot of racist ideas and talk going on after the Zimmerman Verdict. > > I personally do not believe that there are many races, The only race I see is the human race, people of different skin colors, sizes, hair color , weight etc. There are certainly self-identified associations with typical “race” categories that share enough of a common genetic history so that genes can be shown to cluster according to those self-identified categories. It’s true that alternate categories could be created. We could (and do) have a self-identified category of “talls,” and genes which create tallness would cluster into that self-identified category. But it’s incorrect to take an inference from the “race is a social construct” approach that there is no clustering of genes by Self-Identified Race/Ethnic categories, however crude they are. See [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1196372/), for example. “Race” is not a “purely social construct” if you are talking about SIRE groups, and SIRE groups do not have the same frequency for all sorts of gene variants that cluster according to that self-identified “race” group. From the link above: _“We have shown a nearly perfect correspondence between genetic cluster and SIRE for major ethnic groups living in the United States, with a discrepancy rate of only 0.14%. Perhaps this is not surprising for the major groupings (whites, East Asians, and African Americans), since prior studies would suggest enough genetic differentiation between these groups to produce robust clustering.”_ You are welcome to take on faith anything that you want, of course, and to the extent that “race” is a term with a non-absolute definition, I suppose it’s fine to say there is no such thing as race according to a definition that accepts race as a purely social construct. But biologically speaking, the standard US SIRE groups do reflect populations which have different average gene frequencies. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/37 "2013-07-21T03:10:43Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Most of the Biology I studied; our ancestors all came out of Africa, and the people with more melatonin could take hot temperatures the ones who migrated to places in cooler climates were light skinned because they could take cold better. Where did you study biology?! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/38 "2013-07-21T03:12:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I see what you did there. Shhh. Second thoughts. Non-pc? Apologies to Johnny Depp. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/39 "2013-07-21T13:07:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Where did you study biology?! In a good school and saw the same principle used on Education Channels. Archaeologists have found the earliest humanoid bones in Africa. Our earliest ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744/40 "2013-07-21T16:11:35Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I personally do not believe that there are many races, The only race I see is the human race, people of different skin colors, sizes, hair color , weight etc. We don’t think because there is one obese or too skinny of a person if one does something wrong we don’t judge all people because of their size etc.. I’d say you’re wrong because 1. You’re saying just because we don’t judge people based on something, it can’t be a race qualifier. 2. We do judge people based on their weight, size, and hair color. Fat people are characterized as lazy, and having low self esteem. Skinny people are characterized as frail, sickly, meek, and introverted. Blondes have more fun. Redheads are undesirable, or they’re unduly hot tempered. 3. That race is somehow determined by a single person’s personal belief. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racism/663744.md?page=3)