# Racist Country **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 30, 2007, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097 "2007-03-30T10:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Intravenus\_De\_Milo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Intravenus\_De\_Milo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intravenus_De_Milo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2007, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/101 "2007-04-09T05:10:24Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Time to restate the question. Is there a country without racism.? Is there one it is not a big problem. I wonder about England, Canada, Sweden. [/quote] Sadly, I don’t think there is a country devoid of racism, save perhaps The Vatican or some such sovereign body with a very small sample size to draw from. I’ve heard that Canada is more laid-back than the US in terms of race relations (they recently devised an entirely new province for the sake of some of their indigenous peoples, how bad can they be?), but of course there are probably still some problems there. The biggest bone of contention I hear about from Canada is the Quebec sovereignty debate, which could possibly be construed as an issue of race if one takes into consideration ancestral, linguistic, and religious differences between the Quebecois and the rest of Canada. Contemporary Great Britain, I have no idea. There is certainly still a vein of hostility between British and Irish, but as with the contention between Canada and Quebec, the differences there lie primarily in culture and religion, I think. I’m not well versed on what ethnic distinctions there may be between the various groups living in the British Isles, although I suspect that there has historically been sufficient mixing between the groups to blur such lines if they existed. Perhaps some of our British/Irish posters can add some thoughts on this. My college sociology professor seemed to think that Scandinavia as a whole was a paradise of gender equality (at least in terms of social programs and opportunities), but I don’t know about racial harmony or lack thereof. ---
**Author:** ![HazelNutCoffee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@HazelNutCoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HazelNutCoffee)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2007, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/102 "2007-04-09T06:25:26Z")
I feel like this conversation has hijacked the thread, so this will be my last post on this subject. [QUOTE=r4nd0mNumb3rs] Last I was there was summer of 2006. Having no affiliation with the ESL teacher community, I very rarely had to interact with a foreigner. Being a part of the English teacher community may have influenced your perceptions on how common foreigners are in Korea. [/quote] Let me put it this way. If you are a Korean student living in Seoul between the age of 5-25, you will be interacting with a foreigner at some point. There are very few schools that do not have foreigners teaching conversational English classes, whether as regular or after-school classes, and most students will be attending some kind of English academy where the teachers will be at least 80% foreign. If you are a college student, you will probably have to take an English lab class as a requirement, which will most likely be taught by a foreigner. The better universities in Seoul are making it a requirement to take at least some classes that are taught in English, and a fair portion of these classes will be taught by foreign instructors. Of course, if you’re not a student, the chances of you interacting with a foreigner go down significantly. > [@](#): > > As most Koreans do not speak English fluently, I don’t think that’s the cause for much resentment. The resentment stems from the fact that all foreigners have to do to get a job in Korea is be white and speak English (and have a BA, if they want to teach legally). I’ve worked with people who are dumber than rocks, yet because they fulfill these three requirements, they are earning anywhere from 20 to 50 dollars an hour. Granted there are more complicated elements, such as the US military presence, which colors a lot of what Koreans think about white foreigners in general. “These white people come to our country and take all our best land, seduce our women, get rich, and don’t even bother to learn our language” would be how I would vaguely summarize the feelings of resentment. > [@](#): > > I will readily admit there is some resentment towards white foreigners, and it’s the xenophobia I was referring to. But because the majority of foreigners in Korea do not learn the language to fluency (if you do, you could probably get on TV) so if the foreigner community truly felt “oppressed” by the Korean majority, try learning the language. I doubt the the struggles of the English teacher in Korea are greater than those of working class hispanics or (God-forbid) Muslim in the United States. And I don’t think they’re there for a year or two to make some dough. Yes Koreans are xenophobic, but our xenophobia is of little consequence at least. American xenophobia and indifference towards the lives of foreigners may lead to an invasion. But as I have been saying, the circumstances are too different to be compared in any meaningful way. Well, that was my original question - are we measuring racist in terms of consequences or general social attitudes or government policies or what? I am certainly not trying to paint white people in Korea as victims - I joke all the time to my friends that there is no better place to be a white guy than in Korea. My point is simply that in terms of attitude towards foreigners, Koreans are certainly not the most benign people on this planet. They may not actively seek out foreigners to lynch - they may actually be nice to foreigners overall - but the underlying hostility towards foreigners is still very much present, and very much considered the norm. Okay, I’ll stop now. 🙂 I feel this is a futile conversation anyway. The OP obviously has no intention of coming back and clarifying his question, so it’s a moot point I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2007, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/103 "2007-04-09T07:51:57Z")
[QUOTE=r4nd0mNumb3rs] So I suppose you consider the German and the French different races too? According to you, there must be hundreds of races. [/quote] Germans and French aren’t different races; it’s not about nationality but phenotypes. Germans and French are phenotypically similar, but Koreans and Japanese are much more different. There aren’t hundreds of races IMO, but there are lots more than the big 5 races; Black, White, Asian, Oriental, Indigenous? Lots more shades of gray than that… > [@](#): > > Yes, Koreans are so very racist with a history of slavery and discriminatory laws against a substantial portion of the population. Oh wait… Slavery, maybe not. But a long history of discrimination. And if that’s your only definition of racism, then the US and UK are the most racist countries ever. If that’s your premise, just say it. > [@](#): > > So you’re saying that Koreans are racist against all those “African-Koreans” that have integrated into Korean society? Because last I checked there weren’t too many of those. No, because you’re right there aren’t very afro-Koreans. But there are anglo-Koreans and they are highly discriminated against. As are white people living in Korea. But again, if your premise is that the only (or the most) racist Society is America, just come right out and say it rather than beating around the bush. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2007, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/104 "2007-04-09T09:01:50Z")
OK, a moderately funny example from Thailand. When I married my wife, we lived in Bahrain. She went swimming every afternoon and was soon very slim and dark. I thought she had never looked better. When she went home the first time after we married, her family was after her to stay and not go back to Bahrain since she was obviously unhappy and had been working so hard. “Look, you’re skinny and you’ve turned **black!** ” was the general comment. They honestly thought I was using her as a field hand on a farm or something. As far as the Japanese/Korean thing, it’s hard to tell whether to call it racist or just what. You can spout DNA evidence as much as you like to a Japanese guy, telling him that Japan was settled from the Korean peninsula. The ones I have met are **never** going to accept that and the reaction is generally pretty intense. It reminds me of my grandfathers reaction to evolution and reasoned debate isn’t going to make much headway. As far as whether it’s racism or not, don’t tell me, go tell the Japanese. The ones I’ve met are completely convinced that they do **not** have any Korean ancestors in their family tree and that they are superior because of it. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![The\_Spirit\_of\_Radio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e19b73/32.png) [@The\_Spirit\_of\_Radio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Spirit_of_Radio)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2007, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/105 "2007-04-09T14:56:02Z")
[QUOTE=HubZilla] What about places where the light-skinned people are looked upon more favorably than darker-skinned ones? The Philippines, for example, most of the rich people, actors and actresses, media, high-end retail & waitresses are light-skinned. Certain jobs, you need not apply if your skin is dark (they want pictures with job applications). I hear tell that Brazil and\*\* Mexico \*\* are the same way. [/QUOTE] Mexico??? I think not. I just got back on Saturday from Mexico, (Ajijic, Jalisco) and I didn’t see any real rascism. Just about the closest thing to rascism I saw there (if you really want to call what you’re about to hear that) was at a soccer game. Chivas of Guadalajara was playing D.C. United. They played the American and Mexican anthems before the game. All, God, there must have been at least 50,000 people there, stood up and saluted the Mexican flag in perfect harmony. But then when they played the American anthem, it was a different story. All hell pretty much broke loose. It didn’t really help that I was one of about maybe 10 or 15 other Americans in the whole stadium. People were screaming, throwing things, and I think, I have a pretty good grasp on the Spanish language, cursing. I heard “puta” used in a sentence at least once. Then everyone pretty much started booing and shouting “CHIVAS!!!” It was so cool. Chivas won, 2-1. When it comes to futbol, Mexicans go absolutely nuts. When his team does well, your average Mexican is about twice, maybe three times, as spirited as those guys that are always at the bar on Sunday watching football. But, yeah, that’s about all the rascism,(once again, if you want to call it that) that I saw there. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/106 "2007-04-09T19:00:04Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] Germans and French aren’t different races; it’s not about nationality but phenotypes. Germans and French are phenotypically similar, but Koreans and Japanese are much more different. There aren’t hundreds of races IMO, but there are lots more than the big 5 races; Black, White, Asian, Oriental, Indigenous? Lots more shades of gray than that… [/quote] Cite? I’m not convinced that Koreans and Japanese are any more different than a Frenchman and a German. Race has been largely discredited as a valid, scientific classification anyway. Where did those 5 big races come from? What we’re discussing is the common, persistment distinctions made and I doubt that when confronted with a Japanese person and a Korean person most people will be able to consistently tell the difference. > [@](#): > > No, because you’re right there aren’t very afro-Koreans. But there are anglo-Koreans and they are highly discriminated against. As are white people living in Korea. But again, if your premise is that the only (or the most) racist Society is America, just come right out and say it rather than beating around the bush. How many naturalized “Anglo-Koreans” are there? I’m not talking about people there for a year or two to teach English or serve in the military. In order to be called “Korean” one would expect him/her to know the language and customs and have plans to settle in the country. When that does happen, they often become celebrities. Is that the discrimination you’re referring to? I don’t believe any country is the ‘most racist’ I’m just using the United States as an example because it’s another country that I am personally familiar with. The point I’ve been trying to make is that something like xenophobia _is not measurable_ beyond highly biased anecdotal evidence. Why is everyone dumping on Korea anyway? Japan’s just as bad as we are, if not worse. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2007, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/107 "2007-04-10T08:21:36Z")
[QUOTE=r4nd0mNumb3rs] Cite? I’m not convinced that Koreans and Japanese are any more different than a Frenchman and a German. Race has been largely discredited as a valid, scientific classification anyway. Where did those 5 big races come from? What we’re discussing is the common, persistment distinctions made and I doubt that when confronted with a Japanese person and a Korean person most people will be able to consistently tell the difference. How many naturalized “Anglo-Koreans” are there? I’m not talking about people there for a year or two to teach English or serve in the military. In order to be called “Korean” one would expect him/her to know the language and customs and have plans to settle in the country. When that does happen, they often become celebrities. Is that the discrimination you’re referring to? I don’t believe any country is the ‘most racist’ I’m just using the United States as an example because it’s another country that I am personally familiar with. The point I’ve been trying to make is that something like xenophobia _is not measurable_ beyond highly biased anecdotal evidence. Why is everyone dumping on Korea anyway? Japan’s just as bad as we are, if not worse. [/QUOTE] Again, if your premise is that America is the most racist culture, just say it. ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/108 "2007-04-11T04:46:02Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] Again, if your premise is that America is the most racist culture, just say it. [/QUOTE] OK… Are you serious or just trolling? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/109 "2007-04-11T05:36:10Z")
[QUOTE=r4nd0mNumb3rs] OK… Are you serious or just trolling? [/QUOTE] Outside the BBQ Pit, accusations of trolling or “questions” about other posters trolling is prohibited. If you believe that another poster is trolling, use the Report Thiis Post function to notify the staff. Please do not do this again. * * * OTOH, **GomiBoy** , I see no evidence that you are reading the posts by **r4nd0mNumb3rs** and responding in good faith. Nothing s/he has posted indicates a desire to limit the discussion to (or even make the assertion that) the U.S. is “the most racist culture.” Either respond to what is posted or make your arguments with logical inferences drawn from statements you can cite. Simply repeating the claim that another poster is accusing the U.S. of excessive or unique racism over and over with no actual evidence for your claim is not promoting discussion and it looks very much like harrassment. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/110 "2007-04-11T10:42:12Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] OTOH, **GomiBoy** , I see no evidence that you are reading the posts by **r4nd0mNumb3rs** and responding in good faith. Nothing s/he has posted indicates a desire to limit the discussion to (or even make the assertion that) the U.S. is “the most racist culture.” Either respond to what is posted or make your arguments with logical inferences drawn from statements you can cite. Simply repeating the claim that another poster is accusing the U.S. of excessive or unique racism over and over with no actual evidence for your claim is not promoting discussion and it looks very much like harrassment. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] When s/he says: [QUOTE=r4nd0mNumb3rs] How many naturalized “Anglo-Koreans” are there? I’m not talking about people there for a year or two to teach English or serve in the military. In order to be called “Korean” one would expect him/her to know the language and customs and have plans to settle in the country. When that does happen, they often become celebrities. Is that the discrimination you’re referring to? I don’t believe any country is the ‘most racist’ **I’m just using the United States as an example because it’s another country that I am personally familiar with**. The point I’ve been trying to make is that something like xenophobia is not measurable beyond highly biased anecdotal evidence. [/QUOTE] (bolding mine) Makes me think his premise is that the US is the most racist, and that other countries don’t have the same problems with race as the US, because s/he not only stated that America is the yard stick s/he’s using to compare all others, but every example brought up by anyone is termed (by him/her) ‘xenophobia’ rather than racism, or else s’/he’s stated that they’re not separate races at all like Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans are all one race (without, I might add, a cite to prove this). People have brought examples, being Korean themselves (or Korean-American) living in Korea of Racism (not just xenophobia) in the thread to illustrate. I’ve told stories of my personal experience in Korea and Japan to illustrate. Guess I just got tired of illustrating myself and having others illustrate to have the same comments back at me every time. Don’t understand why this deserved a mod caution for my actions, however? ---
**Author:** ![Grey\_area](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Grey\_area](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey_area)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/111 "2007-04-11T19:26:38Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] When s/he says: (bolding mine) Makes me think his premise is that the US is the most racist, and that other countries don’t have the same problems with race as the US, because s/he not only stated that America is the yard stick s/he’s using to compare all others, but every example brought up by anyone is termed (by him/her) ‘xenophobia’ rather than racism, or else s’/he’s stated that they’re not separate races at all like Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans are all one race (without, I might add, a cite to prove this). People have brought examples, being Korean themselves (or Korean-American) living in Korea of Racism (not just xenophobia) in the thread to illustrate. I’ve told stories of my personal experience in Korea and Japan to illustrate. Guess I just got tired of illustrating myself and having others illustrate to have the same comments back at me every time. Don’t understand why this deserved a mod caution for my actions, however? [/QUOTE] Wait… **You’re** tired of illustrating your point? > [@](#): > > The point I’ve been trying to make is that something like xenophobia is not measurable beyond highly biased anecdotal evidence. > [@](#): > > But as I have been saying, the circumstances are too different to be compared in any meaningful way. > [@](#): > > It’s just two very different circumstances and I don’t think anyone can say which is better or worse. > [@](#): > > So I guess what I’m trying to say is racism/xenophobia/ethnocentricism/whatever across different cultures is hard to quantify with so many demographic, cultural and historical factors. So I guess that reads “I think Americans are the most racist” to you. If you’re going to assert that a certain nation (as it happens, the nation I’m from) is so outstandingly “racist” I hope you have more “illustrations” than your two anecdotes. The point you are trying to make (Japanese and Koreans are distinct races) is _not_ the commonly held belief so there is more burden on you to provide a cite. In fact there’s a thread right [now](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=416181) discussing the subtle differences found in the different nations of the Asian race. If there were such obvious ‘phenotypical’ differences, would such a discussion take place? But race can be an ambiguous and arbitrary way to classify people anyway, so I guess you have that on your side. Also I’ve already tried to explain the differences between ‘racism’ and ‘xenophobia’. Xenophobia is not any better than racism _but they are different_, though admittedly the latter is more of a charged word with more negative associations. What it seems like to me is you’re trying to argue over semantics and put words in my mouth while sidestepping my replies to your assertions. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/112 "2007-04-11T20:55:16Z")
[QUOTE=GomiBoy] Makes me think his premise is that the US is the most racist, . . . [/QUOTE] Using one country as a comparator while stating an explicit belief that it is not the most racist is the same as saying it is the most racist? Truly, you [display] a dizzying intellect. (And in order to consider the Korean/Chinese/Japanese issue as one of race, you would first need to provide evidence of someone who actually considered any of those groups as “races” since they are clearly not considered separate in the Linnaean four race, Blumenbach five race, or mid-twentieth century three race models.) Why not just engage the points of discussion instead of worrying over that side issue? ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/113 "2007-04-12T07:22:38Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Using one country as a comparator while stating an explicit belief that it is not the most racist is the same as saying it is the most racist? Truly, you [display] a dizzying intellect. (And in order to consider the Korean/Chinese/Japanese issue as one of race, you would first need to provide evidence of someone who actually considered any of those groups as “races” since they are clearly not considered separate in the Linnaean four race, Blumenbach five race, or mid-twentieth century three race models.) Why not just engage the points of discussion instead of worrying over that side issue? [/QUOTE] Fine. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2007, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/114 "2007-04-12T07:58:13Z")
[QUOTE=r4nd0mNumb3rs] Wait… **You’re** tired of illustrating your point? The point you are trying to make (Japanese and Koreans are distinct races) is _not_ the commonly held belief so there is more burden on you to provide a cite. In fact there’s a thread right [now](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=416181) discussing the subtle differences found in the different nations of the Asian race. If there were such obvious ‘phenotypical’ differences, would such a discussion take place? [/quote] The phenotypical discussions underway in that thread are subtle, yes, but Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese can certainly identify each other easily and quickly and accurately. Clearly it’s not subtle to them, and it is a reason for action and to treat a person a certain way. > [@](#): > > But race can be an ambiguous and arbitrary way to classify people anyway, so I guess you have that on your side. Who’s putting words in who’s mouth again? Who said anything about using race as a _ **good** _ way to classify people?!? I certainly never did; I am against using race as a way to classify people and think it shouldn’t matter in the slightest. But I also live in the real world and realize that a lot of people don’t think the same way I do, and to a hell of a lot of people race does matter. And the amount of research on the subject clearly shows how damn complex it is! Read here:[link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race) > [@](#): > > At the beginning of the 20th century, anthropologists questioned, and eventually abandoned, the claim that biologically distinct races are isomorphic with distinct linguistic, cultural, and social groups. Then, the rise of population genetics led some mainstream evolutionary scientists in anthropology and biology to question the very validity of race as scientific concept describing an objectively real phenomenon. Those who came to reject the validity of the concept, race, did so for four reasons: empirical, definitional, the availability of alternative concepts, and ethical (Lieberman and Byrne 1993). > > The first to challenge the concept of race on empirical grounds were anthropologists Franz Boas, who demonstrated phenotypic plasticity due to environmental factors (Boas 1912), and Ashley Montagu (1941, 1942), who relied on evidence from genetics. Zoologists Edward O. Wilson and W. Brown then challenged the concept from the perspective of general animal systematics, and further rejected the claim that “races” were equivalent to “subspecies” (Wilson and Brown 1953). > > One of the crucial innovations in reconceptualizing genotypic and phenotypic variation was anthropologist C. Loring Brace’s observation that such variations, insofar as it is affected by natural selection, migration, or genetic drift, are distributed along geographic gradations; these gradations are called “clines” (Brace 1964). This point called attention to a problem common to phenotypic-based descriptions of races (for example, those based on hair texture and skin color): they ignore a host of other similarities and difference (for example, blood type) that do not correlate highly with the markers for race. Thus, anthropologist Frank Livingstone’s conclusion that, since clines cross racial boundaries, “there are no races, only clines” (Livingstone 1962: 279). In 1964, biologists Paul Ehrlich and Holm pointed out cases where two or more clines are distributed discordantly—for example, melanin is distributed in a decreasing pattern from the equator north and south; frequencies for the haplotype for beta-S hemoglobin, on the other hand, radiate out of specific geographical points in Africa (Ehrlich and Holm 1964). As anthropologists Leonard Lieberman and Fatimah Linda Jackson observe, “Discordant patterns of heterogeneity falsify any description of a population as if it were genotypically or even phenotypically homogeneous” (Lieverman and Jackson 1995). > > Finally, geneticist Richard Lewontin, observing that 85 percent of human variation occurs within populations, and not between populations, argued that neither “race” nor “subspecies” were appropriate or useful ways to describe populations (Lewontin 1973). Some researchers report the variation between racial groups (measured by Sewall Wright’s population structure statistic FST) accounts for as little as 5% of human genetic variation2. > > A. W. F. Edwards claimed in 2003 that such conclusions are unwarranted because the argument ignores the fact that most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data and not simply in the variation of the individual factors.[8] While it makes Lewontin’s argument unwarranted, Edward’s paper does not address the existence or absence of human race, see Lewontin’s Fallacy. > > Also, it has been argued that the calculation of within group and between group diversity has violated certain assumptions regarding human genetic variation. Calculation of this variation is known as FST and Long and Kittles (2003) have questioned the validity of this reproducible statistic. The first problem is that effective population size is assumed to be equal in the calculation of FST, if population sizes vary, then allele relatedness among alleles will also vary. The second problem is that FST calculation has assumed that each population is evolutionarily independent. Calculation of FST can therefore only be made for the set of populations being observed, and generalisations from specific data sets cannot be applied to the species as a whole.[9] > > Long and Kittles tested four models for determining FST and concluded that the model used most often for estimating this statistic is the simplest and worst fitting. Their best fit model was still a poor fit for the observed genetic variation, and calculation of FST for this model can only be made on a population by population basis. They conclude that African populations have the highest level of genetic diversity, with diversity much reduced in populations outside of Africa. They postulate that if an extra-terrestrial alien life form killed the entire human species, but kept a single population which it preserved, the choice of population to keep would greatly effect the level of diversity represented. If an African population were selected then no diversity would be lost, whereas nearly a third of genetic diversity would be lost if a Papuan New Guinea population were chosen. Indeed within population genetic diversity in African populations has been shown to be greater than between population genetic diversity for Asians and Europeans. They conclude that their findings are consistent with the American Association of Physical Anthropologists 1996 statement on race > [@](#): > > Also I’ve already tried to explain the differences between ‘racism’ and ‘xenophobia’. Xenophobia is not any better than racism _but they are different_, though admittedly the latter is more of a charged word with more negative associations. What it seems like to me is you’re trying to argue over semantics and put words in my mouth while sidestepping my replies to your assertions. I guess I just don’t follow your explanations then. I am certainly not trying to argue semantics, and do not want to put words in your mouth. Please confirm my assumptions: You don’t consider the way Koreans treat anyone not Korean as racist; you consider this xenophobia, because Korea has only 1 racial type integrated into the countr(ies). I disagree. I think you’re not considering the way some Koreans (or Japanese) treat people of mixed race. I’ve seen this first hand, with mixed race couples who have kids (especially those in the military). The mixed-race kids are quite often treated like absolute crap by the ‘pure’ Koreans. I’m not singling out Koreans (or Japanese or Chinese for that matter) for the title of ‘most racist’ , btw, just expressing my personal experience. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2007, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/115 "2007-04-15T20:25:00Z")
[QUOTE=Intravenus De Milo] . Contemporary Great Britain, I have no idea. There is certainly still a vein of hostility between British and Irish, but as with the contention between Canada and Quebec, the differences there lie primarily in culture and religion, I think. I’m not well versed on what ethnic distinctions there may be between the various groups living in the British Isles, although I suspect that there has historically been sufficient mixing between the groups to blur such lines if they existed. Perhaps some of our British/Irish posters can add some thoughts on this. . [/QUOTE] You couldnt be more wrong about Brits and Irish Im afraid.There are quite a few Irish who havent actually been to Britain who do hold a grudge against Brits or to be honest the English. This is down to a slightly bizarre education that portrays the English as being on a par with Nazi Germany,lI kid you not . I have many Irish v. close friends and visit there often. A bloke once said to me in a pub over there in all honesty “I was brought up to think that the English were scum!but I went over there for a rugby International and everyone was so friendly!” Another guy told me “I was in Birmingham when the I.R.A. did the pub bombings (killed a lot of civilian men ,women and children .There were no Gov. targets) and I thought because I was Irish I was going to get at the very least a bad kicking,but English people said to me its not your fault dont you feel bad about it” We dont actually consider Irish to be foreigners ,just as we dont consider Aussies or Kiwis to be foreigners. We do have our home grown white neo Nazi tossers who hate everyone of foreign extraction The Indians tend to dislike W.Indians and Pakistanis,Pakistanis dislike Indians and W.Indians All asylum seekers are disapproved of on the grounds that “they come over here and take our jobs” but as individuals they are considered exotic but otherwise just people. Amongst the E europeans there seems to be a lot of mutual dislike . ---
**Author:** ![Cryptoderk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cryptoderk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cryptoderk)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097/116 "2007-04-16T10:26:11Z")
[QUOTE=Lust4Life] You couldnt be more wrong about Brits and Irish Im afraid.There are quite a few Irish who havent actually been to Britain who do hold a grudge against Brits or to be honest the English. This is down to a slightly bizarre education that portrays the English as being on a par with Nazi Germany,lI kid you not . I have many Irish v. close friends and visit there often. A bloke once said to me in a pub over there in all honesty “I was brought up to think that the English were scum!but I went over there for a rugby International and everyone was so friendly!” [/QUOTE] Absolutely there isn’t a problem with the Irish, but there is a massive problem with the Irish travellers - and frankly they’ve brought it on themselves by being a constant nuisance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-country/398097.md?page=5)