# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/201 "2015-10-12T20:38:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Okay, I think I see what you’re saying. But in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=18736069#post18736069), CP says: > > I believe an accurate paraphrase of this post is that “black people are genetically stupider, according to standardized tests, than Asian people.” Do you disagree? If you put in “on average”, then that’s certainly correct. There’s no doubt that CP accepts that there is enormous overlap between the ethnic groups (both because he’s said so explicitly, and because it’s so blindingly obvious). > [@](#): > > Assuming that the OP was responding to CP’s entire performance in the thread, he might have been standing on ground as firm as a thousand dictionaries when he made the claim that got him a warning. If he were only basing it off CP’s allegedly dishonest motives, I agree that he did not have as firm a basis; but CP’s words speak for themselves. OK. But he was warned for the specific paragraph that I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/202 "2015-10-12T20:39:44Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Robert163](#): > > Oh, so you want to hide behind the “rules”. You are missing the point. Hiding behind the rules is for hypocritical mean spirited people. Yet you think so highly of yourself. I’m surprised you can’t see the distinction. > > ETA: Wow, seriously… what a sad and twisted double standard you have. Posts in ATMB are supposed to be polite and civil. Not only is this not polite, it’s justifiably warnable for personal insults. I’ll be kind and just give you a mod note here. This is also not your first post in this thread that goes beyond the ATMB limits of politeness and civility. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/203 "2015-10-12T20:42:20Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If you put in “on average”, then that’s certainly correct. > > There’s no doubt that CP accepts that there is enormous overlap between the ethnic groups (both because he’s said so explicitly, and because it’s so blindingly obvious). When I look at the dictionary definition for “racist,” I’m having trouble seeing any way not to apply the term to someone making that claim; I’m also not seeing another, less offensive, term for someone who makes that claim. > [@](#): > > OK. But he was warned for the specific paragraph that I quoted. As I said earlier, if he wasn’t warned specifically for calling CP a racist, I’m not going to object to the warning. If that’s specifically what he was warned for, however, I don’t think it’s worth quibbling over the fact that the paragraph in which he made that claim contained insufficient evidence to support it, when sufficient evidence was abundant in that thread. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/204 "2015-10-12T20:44:31Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Fenris](#): > > Your posts are retarded, contemptible and disingenuous. They are repulsive in every respect and lower the intelligence and morals of anyone who reads them. Those posts are, in fact, so blatantly hypocritical that Janus, the two-faced god would sneer at them (with both sets of lips, yet). Goebbels would blanch at the level of propaganda your posts spew and a snake would put out less venom than your posts do. > > Good heavens, your posts are so disgustingly repugnant that those posts have got me defending Robert163, who I dislike immensely. That’s how terrible your posts are. > > I hope you can recognize that I am addressing the content of your posts and not calling you names. If you cannot recognize that distinction, you are making my point. > > Gee…this _is_ fun. I see why there are so many posts like this under your name. I understand the point you are trying to make here, but again, this is not exactly what I would call a polite or civil post. Try to make your point in a more polite and less mocking way, please. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/205 "2015-10-12T20:50:14Z")
**Moderator Note** This is to all the participants in this thread. I’ve singled out a couple of posts, but there are many others that I am not going to take the time to quote and list individually that are either over the line for what is acceptable in this forum or are at least pushing towards the line. I understand that this is a hot button issue for a lot of you, so I’m going to cut you all some slack, but please try to keep the discussion civil. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/206 "2015-10-12T20:51:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There is a huge collection of words that describe the views people hold: Christian, pacifist, Democrat, communist, nationalist, pro-lifer, anarchist, aesthete, feminist, and so on and so on. These words are shorthand for a set of beliefs. Having access to these words in a conversation allows people to make accurate and precise reference to folks who hold those beliefs without having to retype the beliefs every time it’s relevant. So if someone says, for instance, “I believe there is evidence that those who self-identify as black in the US score lower on tests of intellectual achievement than those who self-identify as Asian, even when SES and family factors are held constant”, and you respond, “You are a racist”, how does that further the debate? I understand that typing “racist” is easier than typing “someone who believes there is evidence that those who self-identify as black in the US score lower on tests of intellectual achievement than those who self-identify as Asian, even when SES and family factors are held constant”, but why is it necessary to type either? Wouldn’t the typing be better spent proving that an SIRE of black _doesn’t_ correlate with lower IQ, when SES and parental education levels are held constant? > [@](#): > > Now that I’ve answered your question of how it furthers debate, I’d like to turn the question back on you. Which other words from this list do you believe we should forbid from applying to other posters, and why? None of them, because none of them are generally regarded as insults. > [@](#): > > FWIW, I’m not sure if I’ve ever called someone a racist in great debates. If the mods reverse their position, as I think they should, I’m not sure I’ll ever call someone a racist in great debates. Having access to the word is a matter of principle, not a matter of me wanting to run through the streets shouting at people. Then it would seem that you recognize on some level that calling “racist” is more akin to shouting at people. And I agree - “racist” is, and is usually meant to be, an insult. IOW it doesn’t further debate. Or at least it has drawbacks that outweigh any alleged time spent typing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/207 "2015-10-12T20:52:35Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When I look at the dictionary definition for “racist,” I’m having trouble seeing any way not to apply the term to someone making that claim; I’m also not seeing another, less offensive, term for someone who makes that claim. You asked if it was an accurate paraphrase of his words so I responded. The distinction is very important, whether or not it changes whether you would apply the term “racist” to the statement. > [@](#): > > As I said earlier, if he wasn’t warned specifically for calling CP a racist, I’m not going to object to the warning. If that’s specifically what he was warned for, however, I don’t think it’s worth quibbling over the fact that the paragraph in which he made that claim contained insufficient evidence to support it, when sufficient evidence was abundant in that thread. The problem here is that the term “racist” has many connotations, which range from KKK members to much milder forms, and while the distinction may be unimportant to some people it can be important to others, most notably including the ones being accused of it. The specific racism he was accusing CP of in that post (that he had some “political” opposition to black people which drove his scientific arguments) was not something which CP had acknowledged anywhere, in that thread or elsewhere (and he would undoubtedly deny it). So the connotation of “racist” in the context of that specific post was not supported by being CP’s acknowledged position. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/208 "2015-10-12T20:55:22Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > **Moderator Note** > > This is to all the participants in this thread. I’ve singled out a couple of posts, but there are many others that I am not going to take the time to quote and list individually that are either over the line for what is acceptable in this forum or are at least pushing towards the line. Can you at least state whether, in your Mod opinion, **tomndebb** was one of those “many others”, in his snarky response to **Robert** a few of us have quoted? Just so us civilians are clear on where these lines are. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/210 "2015-10-12T22:09:12Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > There comes a point at which some people (I’m not talking about you… I’m not) are no longer worthy of having a “debate” with me. They are only worthy of contempt. At a certain point. That being, when pig headed racism or sexism or persists despite the inability to credibly defend such negative thought/attitude. > > As I said to you before Shodan, you pick some odd topics to defend. Emphasis added. In that case, it would seem that the Pit is where you want to be, not GD. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/211 "2015-10-12T22:23:50Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Point of order–unless calling someone a Democrat, a pro-lifer, or a pacifist is “calling names,” calling someone a racist isn’t calling names. It’s a term that accurately describes the holders of certain positions. > > Now, if it’s applies **inaccurately** , there might be a problem, and I genuinely don’t mind if it’s modded in that case. But when someone is explicitly checking off every box required for meeting the racist criteria, it’s simply the use of an accurate, useful word. It’s not a pejorative in that case. To say that “racist” is not perforative in the U.S. in 2015 is disingenuous, at best. But this really is the crux of the issue. You and others want to be able to use it—with all the weight it has, close to that of "pedophile’—and you attempt to defend this by pointing to a benign dictionary definition that no one uses. So your claim that it’s meaning is accurate, in the more benign sense, is flatly wrong. You go on to say it is “useful”. I say it’s not, for two reason. One, it is used as a strong insult, a cudgel, to shut down debate. And two, its utility is diminished by the word’s meaning being, as your rationale suggests, Unclear. Even if you intent is honestly the more benign meaning, do you really think that the word won’t be read with all it’s insulting power attached? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/212 "2015-10-12T22:35:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > To say that “racist” is not perforative in the U.S. in 2015 is disingenuous, at best. Not to poke a bunch of holes in your description of the word “racist,” but it’s the charm of the Straight Dope, that you can get warned for using the word “racist” to describe someone who thinks black people are genetically, intellectually inferior; but saying that someone is acting “disingenuous, at best” is business as usual. > [@](#): > > But this really is the crux of the issue. You and others want to be able to use it—with all the weight it has, close to that of "pedophile’—and you attempt to defend this by pointing to a benign dictionary definition that no one uses. So your claim that it’s meaning is accurate, in the more benign sense, is flatly wrong. “That no one uses”? Are you kidding me? That’s the most straightforward definition of “racist” I can imagine. And frankly, if someone says they are sexually attracted to children, I have no problem with calling them “pedophile.” It would be absurd to ban the word’s use to describe such a person. ---
**Author:** ![Longshanks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Longshanks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Longshanks)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/213 "2015-10-12T22:44:56Z")
FFS reading this thread is really pissing me off! The crux of the issue really is quite simple, there’s no need for everyone to be retreading old ground. The word racist is not allowed to be used as a descriptor here because, the main group it tends to generally apply to (white people) make up the majority of America and in turn this board. They don’t like to hear a word that could accurately describe them so they pretty much ban its usage, whilst allowing other words and phrases like holocaust denier to be thrown around willy nilly. That is why most hate speech is swept under the rug here and, the mods like tomndebb bend over backwards to try and defend the racist and xenophobic scum that tend to infest this board. See folks now that wasn’t so hard to work out, was it?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/214 "2015-10-12T22:49:38Z")
> [@Barktree](#): > > Wait a minute. Writing post after after post claiming black people are inferior while dredging up discredited studies is OK but describing those views is racist isn’t OK because it carries “emotional weight”? Didn’t tomndebb (or was it JC?) smack Pjen for bringing up studies/cites that others had knocked down? Is it not fascinating that when anti-Semitic comments are said here, the posters work themselves into a frenzy (with the mods looking the other way) but when it comes to good ol’ Jim Crow-like comments about blacks, the mods are vigorously protecting them like the ACLU? Long time lurker, first time poster? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/215 "2015-10-12T22:58:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And frankly, if someone says they are sexually attracted to children, I have no problem with calling them “pedophile.” It would be absurd to ban the word’s use to describe such a person. I agree, as there is no confusion as to what you’d be describing. That’s not true for “racist”. It has a much wider spectrum of meaning. Would you at least grant that? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/216 "2015-10-12T22:59:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > One, it is used as a strong insult, a cudgel, to shut down debate. What debate would that be? This is the same silly argument that let Caesario post about how three year old girls were coming onto him and how he should be able to fuck them. “O noes! We can’t censor him! Because it’ll have a ‘chilling’ effect on debate. Also free speech!” He lasted _months_ spewing this crap and what he was spewing wasn’t debatable because some ideas are too stupid to be debatable. If someone wants to exterminate Jews to protect the ‘superior races’, there’s no debate possible because the idea is retarded. And if someone wants to allow 3 year old girls to give “informed consent” to have sex, there’s no debate possible because the idea is retarded. And when someone says > [@](#): > > The idea that either income, opportunity or parental education is responsible for the black-white academic performance difference is based on the observation that, when nurturing is improved, black scores improve. This is true. It’s true for whites and asians as well. > > But at any given opportunity tier, the same rank order in academics always remains, there’s no debate possible because the idea is retarded in exactly the same way as the prior two examples. What the folks supporting racists will not admit there’s a big, super-wide gap between “Since you said “Illegal immigration is wrong”, you’re a racist” and “Since you said ‘All the blacks are teh dumb because SCIENCE!’, you’re a racist”. Mods make those judgement calls every! single! time! they moderate on just about any post or topic. It’s not that hard of a call for them to make. So seriously–you gonna address that huge chasm between people using “racist” as a cudgel and people using racist to define people who say “But at any given opportunity tier, the same rank order in academics always remains [with blacks at the bottom because black people are dumb]” ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/217 "2015-10-12T23:18:49Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > What debate would that be? This is the same silly argument that let Caesario post about how three year old girls were coming onto him and how he should be able to fuck them. “O noes! We can’t censor him! Because it’ll have a ‘chilling’ effect on debate. Also free speech!” He lasted _months_ spewing this crap and what he was spewing wasn’t debatable because some ideas are too stupid to be debatable. > > If someone wants to exterminate Jews to protect the ‘superior races’, there’s no debate possible because the idea is retarded. > > And if someone wants to allow 3 year old girls to give “informed consent” to have sex, there’s no debate possible because the idea is retarded. > > And when someone says > there’s no debate possible because the idea is retarded in exactly the same way as the prior two examples. > > What the folks supporting racists will not admit there’s a big, super-wide gap between “Since you said “Illegal immigration is wrong”, you’re a racist” and “Since you said ‘All the blacks are teh dumb because SCIENCE!’, you’re a racist”. > > Mods make those judgement calls every! single! time! they moderate on just about any post or topic. It’s not that hard of a call for them to make. > > So seriously–you gonna address that huge chasm between people using “racist” as a cudgel and people using racist to define people who say “But at any given opportunity tier, the same rank order in academics always remains [with blacks at the bottom because black people are dumb]” I’m not perfectly clear on what you’re asking. Can you rephrase it? And if you’d like me to comment on what someone said, it would be helpful to not have the quote include bracketed information. I’m not trying to put you off, I’m genuinely unclear on what you’re getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/218 "2015-10-13T01:35:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I agree, as there is no confusion as to what you’d be describing. That’s not true for “racist”. It has a much wider spectrum of meaning. Would you at least grant that? It has no wider spectrum of meaning than “mountain.” The spectrum of meaning for “mountain” means we might debate the status of [Mount Wycheproof](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Wycheproof), that shouldn’t stop us from accurately calling Everest by the correct geographic nomenclature. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/219 "2015-10-13T07:43:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’m not perfectly clear on what you’re asking. Can you rephrase it? And if you’d like me to comment on what someone said, it would be helpful to not have the quote include bracketed information. I’m not trying to put you off, I’m genuinely unclear on what you’re getting at. it seems clear enough. Fenris is simply saying that he sees a great effective gap that can be practically identified between the use of the word racist to apply to differences in ideas about a policy like immigration and someone who is saying all blacks are dumb because of “science.” It is not hard to understand. in any case it is clear we will continue to have the strange political correctness on this, so that using that the english language noun for a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority when the person makes such direct argument is just simply an insult and not a descriptive noun. It is like other strange faux politesses the current oversight prefers. the door of reasoning was closed and the baroque will go forward. C’est la vie. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/220 "2015-10-13T10:55:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Well, you could stop proving my point every time you enter a discussion. I was out of line making this post and I a apologize. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/221 "2015-10-13T10:57:39Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > in any case it is clear we will continue to have the strange political correctness on this, so that using that the english language noun for a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities… Im n to sure that anyone on this board believes that race is the primary determinant for human traits and capacities. As I’ve stated elsewhere, even if it is the case that broadly speaking, different races have different average intelligences, I think that those differences are so small that an individual’s environment and culture are much more important. But I guess if you look at elite sprinters, someone’s personal ceiling may be set by genetics aligned with race, more specifically, West Africa. Meaning that if someone doesn’t share the “magical” gene set from West Africa, he/she will not be winning Olympic medals for sprinting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=12)