# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/282 "2015-10-14T02:30:28Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I was unaware that cisgender was considered pejorative by some. Thanks for the link. I’m not convinced though: I have not seen evidence that such feelings are widespread. Also, I would need some persuasion - probably in another thread - that the author is not squirrely. > > Cisgender is a useful term, albeit with narrow applications. It would be a shame to lose it. Google her name. Google “die cis scum”. Now, how widespread? How do I know? My LGBT friends all say they don’t mean “me” but they do say it’s hardly ever used in a positive way. And she showed there are alternatives. Here’s the point, if a transgender person says “Hey don’t use ‘tranny’”, I think we’d all go along with it, right? But if a non-transgendered person says "Ok, then don’t use “cis” there’s argument. Why? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/283 "2015-10-14T02:43:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > “Cisgender,” like “racist,” is an accurate term used to refer to people according to an unambiguous characteristic. That’s absurd. “Racist” is subjective, and no two people are going to characterize the rest of humanity into two boxes, racist and non-racist, the same way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/284 "2015-10-14T02:51:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s absurd. “Racist” is subjective, and no two people are going to characterize the rest of humanity into two boxes, racist and non-racist, the same way. Two responses: 1. I’ve cited a clear dictionary definition that matches the classic use of the word multiple times in this thread. It is no more subjective than the word “chair.” We don’t have to have perfect matches for this word, any more than we have perfect matches for any other word. But unless you’re some sort of Lacanian Deconstructionist (note my use of a label), you can use words nonetheless. [Wittgenstein has already solved this nonproblem for us](http://users.rcn.com/rathbone/lw76-80c.htm). 2. The disagreement in the gray area does not extend to disagreement on clear-cut cases. See my previous analogy to mountains: while we may quibble over whether a 200-foot-hill should be classified as a mountain, we can agree to give Everest its due. Similarly, we may argue over whether Daniel Patrick Moynihan was racist, but there’s no need to quibble over David Duke. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/285 "2015-10-14T03:08:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I always say “scientific racist” which is an academic term used pretty regularly in university settings. > > I don’t know how Tom or JC feel about it. I agree that term fits just about perfectly. I’ve used it and the simpler ‘racist’ in my commentary of others’ posts and never received even a raised eyebrow until the other day. > [@magellan01](#): > > So, you do want to hold onto the insulting part of the word. And all the other semantic bullshit is just that: bullshit. > > The problem, since you seem unable to parse to for yourself, is that not everyone you disagree with on issues of race are necessarily racist, in the pejorative sense. But maybe you think that’s not true, and that anyone that has the temerity to disagree with you on a racial issue, is, by definition, racist. > > Well aren’t you the Mighty Injustice Fighter! I would never call somebody a racist simply because they disagreed with me on the topic of race. I would only call a person a racist if they do things like spend a lot of time on message boards arguing that black people tend to perform more poorly on standardized tests because of their genes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/286 "2015-10-14T03:41:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Two responses: > > 1. I’ve cited a clear dictionary definition that matches the classic use of the word multiple times in this thread. It is no more subjective than the word “chair.” We don’t have to have perfect matches for this word, any more than we have perfect matches for any other word. But unless you’re some sort of Lacanian Deconstructionist (note my use of a label), you can use words nonetheless. [Wittgenstein has already solved this non problem for us](http://users.rcn.com/rathbone/lw76-80c.htm). Please. You think everyone uses the term exactly the way the dictionary describes it? That’s a “very unique” view of how language works. > [@](#): > > 1. The disagreement in the gray area does not extend to disagreement on clear-cut cases. See my previous analogy to mountains: while we may quibble over whether a 200-foot-hill should be classified as a mountain, we can agree to give Everest its due. Similarly, we may argue over whether Daniel Patrick Moynihan was racist, but there’s no need to quibble over David Duke. And maybe the mods don’t want to open the door to the slippery slope that is bound to happen since many of us are going to disagree on where the boundary is between “obviously racist” and “maybe not racist”. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/287 "2015-10-14T05:12:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here’s the point, if a transgender person says “Hey don’t use ‘tranny’”, I think we’d all go along with it, right? But if a non-transgendered person says "Ok, then don’t use “cis” there’s argument. Why? I’m going to pick a nit. “Cis” is a shortened version of “Cisgender”. Not all nicknames are offensive. But some are, notoriously so. “Cis” sounds plausibly pejorative. To determine whether it is in a general sense, we would have to convene a usage panel. I quip, but my point is evidence must be weighed. Cisgender is superior to non-transgender, because the 2nd is analogous to a double negative. That’s not a decisive argument though, merely something to consider. At any rate this cis-guy hasn’t encountered any cisphobia or non-transphobia (your choice) at least without looking for it, so he isn’t yet prepared to be offended or perturbed by the prefix in question. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/288 "2015-10-14T09:51:13Z")
I hate coming across a word I have to look up, [and then find it is a made up word](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Cisgender&year_start=1800&year_end=2010&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=), which is meaningless. You can’t compare a made up word to the well known insult/descriptive word “racist”, which in our politically correct world is an absolute insult. It’s a top level insult. You get that label slapped on you, true or not, you are in deep shit. Couldn’t you use an example everybody can understand here? Like, “Idiot is not an insult if somebody really is an idiot”. Or, “Moron isn’t an insult if somebody is obviously a moron?”. Please consider your audience when arguing that you should be allowed to insult somebody in GD, if they really are as you perceive them. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/289 "2015-10-14T10:04:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Please. You think everyone uses the term exactly the way the dictionary describes it? That’s a “very unique” view of how language works. No, I don’t think that. Nor did I say that; nor does that bear any relationship to the thread. > [@](#): > > And maybe the mods don’t want to open the door to the slippery slope that is bound to happen since many of us are going to disagree on where the boundary is between “obviously racist” and “maybe not racist”. Due respect, have you read this thread before responding to it? If you have, you’ve missed posts that directly respond to your concerns. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/290 "2015-10-14T10:06:46Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > I hate coming across a word I have to look up, [and then find it is a made up word](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Cisgender&year_start=1800&year_end=2010&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=), which is meaningless. Cisgender is made-up, that’s true. But the other words in my sentence, including _is, made-up, that’s_, and _true_, weren’t unearthed by archeologists in the 1920s in a cave deep in Afghanistan. All words are made up. > [@](#): > > You can’t compare a made up word to the well known insult/descriptive word “racist”, which in our politically correct world is an absolute insult. It’s a top level insult. You get that label slapped on you, true or not, you are in deep shit. This is not true. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/291 "2015-10-14T10:44:08Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Cisgender is made-up, that’s true. We know. It’s like discussing if “quackohnutjob” is an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/292 "2015-10-14T11:09:56Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > We know. It’s like discussing if “quackohnutjob” is an insult. It is almost entirely unlike that, except inasmuch as in both cases we’d be discussing whether a word is an insult. Otherwise, nothing alike. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/293 "2015-10-14T11:53:46Z")
IMO Part 1: Just to get this right out from the start, I see no reason why discourse along the line of “black africans are intrinsecally less mentally or morally apt” should be granted a “respectable” descriptor other than racism/racist; however even yielding on that we’d just be asking to go into the same spiral as with other words that once upon a time were respectable descriptors and eventually became unacceptable (e.g. “retarded”). What is the problem with rac(ial)ism? The whole problem IS an unmentioned “…therefore…” . [Race/ethnicity X] have some intrinsic defficiency relative to the established dominant group… therefore… no need to invest additionally in education and affirmative action; …therefore… [place of origin] is and will ever be an irremediable hellhole; …therefore… [Race/ethnicityX] will never really “get” what it takes to really have democracy and rule of law and are a threat to America… etc. Try the following sentence: “Racialists subscribe to a point of view and advocate positions that have been previously described as racist.” Apt? Inapt? IMO Part 2: > [@FXMastermind](#): > > You can’t compare a made up word to the well known insult/descriptive word “racist”, which in our politically correct world is an absolute insult. It’s a top level insult. You get that label slapped on you, true or not, you are in deep shit. Which I suppose that cuts two ways in the question on whether it is fair play to use it. There is using it as a descriptive and there is using it as a “nuclear option” to shut down the argument now and going forward. See also: “hypocrite”. See also: “bigot”. Deprecative: “Oh why should I listen to a known racist like [poster] on any subject matter?” “I said go away, bigot”. Descriptive: “That argument is based on premises that have been promoted by racist and supremacist organizations.” IMO Part 3, the Hijack: “Cisgender” is a perfectly good word to use in specific descriptions of gender identity issues. We have had a thread about it before, in which we discussed that it really need not be brought up in regular conversation unless the conversation IS about something where the cis/trans/queer differences are relevant. Cromulent: “To arrive a consensus about accommodation of gender diversity, the conversation must include cis and trans participants in a mutually respectful approach” Unnecessary: “Class, say hello to your new teacher, Miss Hugelsnarfer, she’s a cis lady and a recent graduate from State U.” Idiotic: “die, cis scum” (And while at it, whoever coined “die cis scum” ripped off “die yuppie scum” so they are uncreative on top of [insert descriptor that does not offend you but conveys my disapproval here]) ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/294 "2015-10-14T11:57:57Z")
“Cisgender” is an idiotic made up term, that is functionally meaningless to most people, and it if is an insult, it’s a meaningless one. Dragging it into a Meta discussion about “Idiot isn’t an insult if the person really is an idiot” would be a red herring. Nice try, but the topic isn’t about made up terms. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/295 "2015-10-14T12:03:22Z")
Let’s use an example. > [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > A person who believes in the inherent inferiority of one race versus another is a racist. It is not an insult, it is just a simple fact of definition. A person who doesn’t believe (insert almost anything you believe in) is a bigot. It’s not an insult, it’s just a simple fact of definition. I shouldn’t get a warning for calling somebody a bigot, when they are a bigot. If you can’t see why a Mod would deny you “the right” to call somebody names, then there is no reason to keep arguing this point. Now describing why somebody is wrong, or why you view their words as wrong, that is certainly allowed, even encouraged. But to just use a label, or name calling, it results in a downward spiral of acrimony and bad feelings. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/296 "2015-10-14T12:19:27Z")
Except that definition of racist is not “made up”, it’s the standard definition we’ve worked with for generations. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/297 "2015-10-14T12:37:18Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Except that definition of racist is not “made up”, it’s the standard definition we’ve worked with for generations. Actually, it was made up pretty recently it seems, with the first usage attributed to Trotsky. > [@](#): > > This brief comment completely finishes off not only the old philosophy of the Slavophiles, but also the latest revelations of the “Racists.” [1930](https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1930/hrr/ch01.htm) However, [Ngram](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=racist&case_insensitive=on&year_start=1920&year_end=1945&corpus=15&smoothing=0&share=&direct_url=t4%3B%2Cracist%3B%2Cc0%3B%2Cs0%3B%3Bracist%3B%2Cc0%3B%3BRacist%3B%2Cc0) shows it used in 1922, here is [the source](https://books.google.com/books?id=E45YdCsMxOQC&q=%22racist%22&dq=%22racist%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAWoVChMI57e-nPvByAIV0DWICh03Cgzk). Certainly Trotsky didn’t make up the word. It just doesn’t show up in literature much before that. Does it still mean what Trotsky used it to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/298 "2015-10-14T12:46:00Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Actually, it was made up pretty recently it seems, with the first usage attributed to Trotsky. > [1930](https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1930/hrr/ch01.htm) …which would mean it’s been used for generations, unless you’re talking land tortoises. And no, a position I disagree with isn’t the definition of bigotry. I encourage you to explore various dictionary definitions of bigotry. As an aside, I think most dictionaries miss the most commonly used definition of bigotry, but I won’t wander down that garden path if others won’t :). Here, the dictionary definition of “racist” matches how it’s commonly used and will suffice for the conversation we’re having. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/299 "2015-10-14T12:58:50Z")
None of that changes the point. Is ‘bigot’, or ‘racial bigot’ an insult here or not? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/300 "2015-10-14T13:03:02Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > None of that changes the point. Is ‘bigot’, or ‘racial bigot’ an insult here or not? Whether “bigot” is an insult isn’t something I’m prepared to go into at this point. “Racist” can be an insult **if applied inaccurately** , inasmuch as it claims someone holds socially unacceptable views. However, if a person explicitly claims to hold the views described under the definition of “racist,” it’s the only descriptive term that applies. The insult, in other words, comes in claiming someone has those views. If the person has claimed that for themselves, using the word is no more insulting than the insult they’ve already given themselves by claiming those views. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/301 "2015-10-14T13:08:38Z")
As to the term “racist”, it wasn’t used as a descriptive, but the idea behind it dates clearly to the french writer Arthur de Gobineau , who clearly lays out the concept of a master race and racism in his work _An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races_ He states that the ‘white race’ is superior and that the Aryan branch of it in Northern Europe was the ‘Master Race’. [You can read it online](https://archive.org/details/inequalityofhuma00gobi), so don’t take my word for it. So while in 1915 the term wasn’t yet being used, the ideas certainly were being discussed. To call some body racist pretty much means you are claiming they believe as Hitler did, that Gobineau was right. Even if you are thinking of some other race, the idea of calling somebody “racist” almost always means “white person who thinks they are superior to everyone else”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=16)