# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/322 "2015-10-14T19:03:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > To be honest, I have not read all of CP’s posts. I don’t even know if I’ve most of them. You guys may be more expert in that area than I am. I’m just going by what I’ve read, and the tendency of people here to exaggerate or mischaracterize his posts. For example, the idea that he literally compared blacks to cockroaches is so absurd that I’m shocked anyone would actually make it. Yep, that was The Mighty Injustice Fighter himself. I guess little injustices like completely misrepresenting what another poster says or beneath his pay grade. Not “Mighty” enough. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/323 "2015-10-14T19:13:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yep, that was The Mighty Injustice Fighter himself. Perhaps, **magellan** , if you want to know why labels are useful, you could ask yourself why you wrote the above sentence the way you did. Of course, the ad hominem mockery you’re engaging in above isn’t the only use of labels; they’re also useful as precise descriptors and as shorthand. But if you’re willing to allow labels for the purposes of mockery, as you used them above, surely you’re willing to allow them for precise description and for shorthand. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/324 "2015-10-14T19:19:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Yep, that was The Mighty Injustice Fighter himself. I guess little injustices like completely misrepresenting what another poster says or beneath his pay grade. Not “Mighty” enough. This is exactly your problem. You’re bringing emotion into the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/325 "2015-10-14T19:40:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is exactly your problem. You’re bringing emotion into the discussion. It’s there directly and indirectly, with terms like inferior, superior. You think that nature cares about historical abuses of one race by another, for whatever reason. It doesn’t. Your argument goes to, “You know, it might be better to not even look at these things, due to the real-world ramifications the findings may have.” That is a valid position. But it is not one that foes to the science of it. Races differ. Some of those differences we can see and measure fairly easily. Hell, they’re basically indisputable. Others are harder to see. And how genes correlate with levels of intelligence might be the hardest thing of all to parse out, for a variety of reasons. > > But you want to use you well-intioned emotional argument to quash scientific theory and inquiry. No, don’t deny it. That is exactly what you want to do and have virtually admitted it but not wanting to give people who you perceive as making racist statements the smallest benefit of the doubt. You insist on using a term that you know has a negative and insulting connotation. Hell, that’s packed into its primary definition. But you try to weasel around it by arguing that the word has a more benign meaning, and you don’t mean it as an insult. When another word is offered that communicates the benign part, you reject using it. Why? Because you don’t want to give these people who make statements you wish they weren’t making any quarter whatsoever. > > Your position mandates that a statement like, “Blacks have higher levels of melanin in their skin” is racist. Racial isn’t good enough for you. I think that’s because you know that if you agree to its usage there you’ll have to agree to its usage in a statement like, “The lower IQ scores of Blacks may be due to genetic factors.” You don’t want thoughts like that floating around, so you seek to make the discussion taboo by insisting that you use racist to describe the statement. > > As others have pointed out, there are several problems with this. One major one is that you strip the word of its power. When you call a scientist racist for hypothesizing about racial differences and use the same word to describe the actions, beliefs or statements of a vile white supremacist skinhead, you ruin the language and are making the word less valuable, both in terms of clarity and the power it has to be the insult that everyone knows it is. But you take the short-term view: as long as I can exploit/misuse the power of the word to quash merely racial stamens I personally don’t like, it’s worth it. And if you, in the process, unfairly label a non-racist as such (indirectly, through labeling his statements as racist) then, well, that’ll teach him to make those statements again. > > But at least people can see what your game is now. Will it stop you? I doubt it. After all, there’s a potential injustice that can be advanced from these oh-so-vile thoughts, and you are, after all. The Mighty Injustice Fighter. > > :rolleyes: Pretty much all of this is straw-man stuff that I haven’t argued for and have even explicitly rejected (like that any statement about melanin is “racist” – it’s obviously not). And, for some reason, you seem to still insist that I routinely call people racist – do you even have a single example of this? Have I ever called any other poster on the Straight Dope racist? I may have, but I can’t recall doing so. So it’s a lot of straw men that I’ve mostly addressed before. If you have any specific questions, I’d be happy to answer them (as I have many times before), but I think I’ll mostly ignore this ‘big wall of straw-text’. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/326 "2015-10-14T20:30:01Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > The most recent posters I’ve seen cast doubt upon the application of the term racist in this context are **John Mace** and **Shodan** , so maybe you could answer these questions: > > What does CP argue on the topic of race and differential performance on standardized tests? He can and does argue his own points better than I could, but AFAICT he argues that those who self-identify as black in the US roughly correlate (about 80%) with descent from the geographic group of sub-Saharan Africans, and that there are average genetic differences between geographic groups and their descendents. And that average academic performace between blacks in the US and other groups with different geographic backgounds differs even when other factors are corrected for - SES, parental education, and some others. > [@](#): > > I am having such a hard time understanding your positions on the matter because you keep saying what you think his behavior is not. So what is it? It’s debating an unpopular and extremely politically incorrect opinion. > [@](#): > > What is the best term for somebody who spends so much time arguing his position? A Doper. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/327 "2015-10-14T20:55:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > He can and does argue his own points better than I could, but AFAICT he argues that those who self-identify as black in the US roughly correlate (about 80%) with descent from the geographic group of sub-Saharan Africans, and that there are average genetic differences between geographic groups and their descendents. And that average academic performace between blacks in the US and other groups with different geographic backgounds differs even when other factors are corrected for - SES, parental education, and some others. In addition to this, by my (very large, in this case) recollection, he argues that all nurturing elements and opportunity have been accounted for and normalized between black and white students, and therefore we can state definitively and with certainty that black people are inherently intellectually inferior, on average, due to genetics. I strongly disagree with the last two assertions (and I think most of the others are irrelevant), and I have no problem with calling the last assertion a racist one. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/328 "2015-10-14T21:53:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Perhaps, **magellan** , if you want to know why labels are useful, you could ask yourself why you wrote the above sentence the way you did. Good for you for admitting that the term is used as a label and not merely a benign descriptor. We could use more of that type of honesty around here. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/329 "2015-10-14T21:59:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Pretty much all of this is straw-man stuff that I haven’t argued for and have even explicitly rejected (like that any statement about melanin is “racist” – it’s obviously not). And, for some reason, you seem to still insist that I routinely call people racist – do you even have a single example of this? Have I ever called any other poster on the Straight Dope racist? I may have, but I can’t recall doing so. Try reading more slowly: (bolding added) [QUOTE=magellan01] And if you, in the process, unfairly label a non-racist as such **(indirectly, through labeling his statements as racist)** [/QUOTE] > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So it’s a lot of straw men that I’ve mostly addressed before. If you have any specific questions, I’d be happy to answer them (as I have many times before), but I think I’ll mostly ignore this ‘big wall of straw-text’. That’s probably the best course of action for you at this point. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/330 "2015-10-14T22:03:13Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In addition to this, by my (very large, in this case) recollection, he argues that all nurturing elements and opportunity have been accounted for and normalized between black and white students, and therefore we can state definitively and with certainty that black people are inherently intellectually inferior, on average, due to genetics. (emphasis mine) Cite backing up the claims indicated above? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/331 "2015-10-14T22:08:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Try reading more slowly: (bolding added) I’m sure you recognize that I don’t believe I’ve been unfair in any way in labeling certain assertions as racist, so I don’t believe this applies to me at all. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/332 "2015-10-14T22:13:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Good for you for admitting that the term is used as a label and not merely a benign descriptor. We could use more of that type of honesty around here. I certainly would never call “racist” merely a benign descriptor – people may well find it insulting. I just don’t care, if I believe an assertion is racist. Further, the golden rule and all – I definitely want people to call me out if they think I’ve said something racist, so I want to do that for other people as well (in addition to just being fully accurate). ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/333 "2015-10-14T22:14:09Z")
Digging out of the stupid-ass digression about the root meanings of the word racist in the 1920s, the homophobic paranoia about the word “cisgender” and other off-topic issues lemme ask the mods who support keeping the term “racist” off-limits: Is it ok for the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” folks to insult posters by proxy? So if one of our "people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term"s does their “Blacks are dumb 'cause _SCIENCE!_” posts, and there’s a black SDMB’er in the thread, the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” have just called the black SDMB’er dumb. Insults by proxy (“All Catholics are scum” to Bricker or “All Liberals are douchebags” said to Diogenes) have been causes for warnings in the past\* The point is, if you’re not going to let “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” be called racists, then the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” people shouldn’t be allowed to call black dopers dumb. So why aren’t the GD mods warning the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” for insulting black dopers. Does a black doper have to pop into the thread and say “I’m a black doper” to invoke that rule or what? \*irregularly. We’ve never gotten a firm allowed/not allowed policy on it, but the point is notes and/or warnings have been given. Also, those were examples. I don’t think Catholics are scum or liberals are douchbags. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/334 "2015-10-14T22:16:47Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Good for you for admitting that the term is used as a label and not merely a benign descriptor. We could use more of that type of honesty around here. Magellan, a label can be a benign descriptor. However, I never used the word “benign” either. The word I’ve used is “precise.” If you decline opportunities to misrepresent what others have said, the discussion might proceed more productively. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/335 "2015-10-14T22:29:32Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Digging out of the stupid-ass digression about the root meanings of the word racist in the 1920s, the homophobic paranoia about the word “cisgender” and other off-topic issues lemme ask the mods who support keeping the term “racist” off-limits: > > Is it ok for the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” folks to insult posters by proxy? So if one of our "people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term"s does their “Blacks are dumb 'cause _SCIENCE!_” posts, and there’s a black SDMB’er in the thread, the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” have just called the black SDMB’er dumb. > > Insults by proxy (“All Catholics are scum” to Bricker or “All Liberals are douchebags” said to Diogenes) have been causes for warnings in the past\* > > The point is, if you’re not going to let “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” be called racists, then the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” people shouldn’t be allowed to call black dopers dumb. > > So why aren’t the GD mods warning the “people who are obviously racist, despite the fact that we can’t use the term” for insulting black dopers. Does a black doper have to pop into the thread and say “I’m a black doper” to invoke that rule or what? > > \*irregularly. We’ve never gotten a firm allowed/not allowed policy on it, but the point is notes and/or warnings have been given. Also, those were examples. I don’t think Catholics are scum or liberals are douchbags. Frankly, I find little consolation toward those who get offended because a _group_ was insulted. Personal insults shouldn’t be allowed, but saying you can’t ever insult a particular group is moronic. Such as someone saying cops are profiling racists. Should that sort of comment be banned because it hurt the feelings of a Doper who happens to work in law enforcement? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/336 "2015-10-14T22:30:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In addition to this, by my (very large, in this case) recollection, he argues that all nurturing elements and opportunity have been accounted for and normalized between black and white students, and therefore we can state definitively and with certainty that black people are inherently intellectually inferior, on average, due to genetics. > > I strongly disagree with the last two assertions (and I think most of the others are irrelevant), and I have no problem with calling the last assertion a racist one. I’m more on your side than his in this area, but I don’t think his side is racist for thinking so. I think this is something that reasonable people can disagree on. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/337 "2015-10-14T22:37:19Z")
Just in case you missed it: [QUOTE=iiandyiiii] In addition to this, by my (very large, in this case) recollection, he argues that all nurturing elements and opportunity have been accounted for and normalized between black and white students, and therefore we can state definitively and with certainty that black people are inherently intellectually inferior, on average, due to genetics. [/QUOTE] (emphasis mine) Cite backing up the claims indicated above? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/338 "2015-10-14T23:02:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Just in case you missed it: > > (emphasis mine) > > Cite backing up the claims indicated above? I’ll take a look when I’m able to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/339 "2015-10-15T00:20:37Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m more on your side than his in this area, but I don’t think his side is racist for thinking so. I think this is something that reasonable people can disagree on. I’m not really worried about what he thinks… just what he says. And I don’t know if he’s a racist person. But I don’t see how it’s possible to not consider such a statement as a racist one. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/340 "2015-10-15T00:31:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m not really worried about what he thinks… just what he says. And I don’t know if he’s a racist person. But I don’t see how it’s possible to not consider such a statement as a racist one. If it’s true. Just like the melanin statement. Just to be clear, as I’ve mentioned before, I don’t hold that it is true, only that that there is evidence for his opinion. Which he has shared repeatedly. You offered the SCARR study as evidence to support your position, and that’s great. But it does not erase the fact that he, too has evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/341 "2015-10-15T00:39:18Z")
I really think that inserting some idea about the existence of evidence into the definition of “racism” is a bad idea. Rather, let the word label the position, and then debate whether the position is accurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=18)