# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/362 "2015-10-15T16:33:35Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Or “the genetic component must not be ascribed to a ‘race’ classification”. > > Of course people have differences. The problem is when someone says “the ‘(X) Race’ has an intrinsic deficiency”. Because of what has so far happened whenever a ‘race’ is claimed to suffer an intrinsic defect, whether or not supported by anything. Give me 400 years of that “finding” resulting universally in more and better support to get such ‘race’ over the hurdle and we may feel more neutral about it. Then if I understand you correctly, your answer to **John Mace** ’s question - > [@](#): > > …if there are problems related to racial minorities, it would be good to understand what causes those problems. If there is a genetic component, wouldn’t it be good to know? would be No, it would not be good to know, because it has been used to justify discrimination in the past. If I do understand you correctly. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/363 "2015-10-15T16:53:18Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then if I understand you correctly, your answer to **John Mace** ’s question - > would be No, it would not be good to know, because it has been used to justify discrimination in the past. > > If I do understand you correctly. > > Regards, > Shodan “Discrimination” is putting it rather lightly, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/364 "2015-10-15T17:13:43Z")
Maybe it is. **John Mace** ’s question, come to think of it, is subject to refutation by [argument from consequence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_consequences). The response to the question “there is no such” is not subject to that counter, however, because the truth of a statement is not affected by whether or not it leads to desirable consequences. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/365 "2015-10-15T17:18:22Z")
OTOH, where that argument does have a lot of relevance is as to whether it’s worth raising the issue altogether. These racial differences - even if one were to assume they exist - have very little predictive value for any specific individual, and are not worth anything in this regard - but can be misused in this manner. (The problem here is that people keep harping on racial disparities as proof of discrimination, which makes the group average issue hard to avoid.) ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/366 "2015-10-15T17:18:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then if I understand you correctly, your answer to **John Mace** ’s question - > > would be No, it would not be good to know, because it has been used to justify discrimination in the past. > > If I do understand you correctly. > > Regards, > > Shodan To respond first to this your latest post, I refuse an unnuanced Y/N dichotomy to that question. My position re: **John Mace** ’s question is that then it becomes useful and necessary to justify the line of inquiry and the purpose thereof up front, so as to refute what is an understandable presumption, otherwise it will be seen at best as a “JAQ” exercise or an attempt to validate the “race” construct. Sadly I cannot buy “we report, you decide”; tell me WHY are you pointing this out about (Race X). Which however I am willing to consider separately from the character of the persons in the conversation. Someone may not himself be a racist yet his position may arise from premises that in turn had racist sources or lend itself to racist application. In which case pointing THAT out is not, IMO, a personal attack. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/367 "2015-10-15T17:34:26Z")
One thing we need to keep in mind with all this discussion about “intelligence” is that we don’t really even know how to define it, much less measure it. We don’t even know how many different kinds there might be. At best, we can define a number of specific skills (how quickly the hoo-man can navigate a maze, or how many images he can memorize and then recall an hour later). We know, for instance, that chimps have an uncanny ability to memorize the arrangement of objects in a grid when shown the grid for only a brief instance. They beat us handily at this task, and no one knows why. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/368 "2015-10-15T17:56:40Z")
This thread is about the use of the term ‘racist’, not yet another thread about “what actually is the definition of race”, or “does race even exist?”, or “why you are a racist and I am not”. Correct? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/369 "2015-10-15T17:58:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > One thing we need to keep in mind with all this discussion about “intelligence” is that we don’t really even know how to define it, much less measure it. We don’t even know how many different kinds there might be. Not just that we can’t measure “it”, but there are some types of intelligence which can’t be measured even by themselves (e.g. musical ability). I once saw someone make a similar point in a letter to the editor in response to an article about Marilyn Vos Savant, who had the highest measured IQ in the world. This guy’s position was that she had the highest measured ability to figure out a certain specific type of puzzle which is measured by these tests. But what did she ever come up with with all her IQ other than being smart, and how could you compare her to people who had the ability to actually think up great theories, discoveries, or inventions? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/370 "2015-10-15T19:34:31Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > To respond first to this your latest post, I refuse an unnuanced Y/N dichotomy to that question. My position re: **John Mace** ’s question is that then it becomes useful and necessary to justify the line of inquiry and the purpose thereof up front, so as to refute what is an understandable presumption, otherwise it will be seen at best as a “JAQ” exercise or an attempt to validate the “race” construct. Sadly I cannot buy “we report, you decide”; tell me WHY are you pointing this out about (Race X). Is “because it appears to be the case” enough of a justification? In **Chief Pedant** ’s case, he has been known to follow up with a statement in support of race-based affirmative action. Is that enough? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/371 "2015-10-15T21:32:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is “because it appears to be the case” enough of a justification? > > In **Chief Pedant** ’s case, he has been known to follow up with a statement in support of race-based affirmative action. Is that enough? > > Regards, > Shodan True. Similarly, Slave owners almost without exception expressed love and affection for the humane they owned. Therefore only a moron would accuse them of being racist. Particularly if you follow the logic for the people on this thread insisting poor CP isn’t really a racist since racism requires “ill feelings”. People familiar with American history of course realize that such logic is at best highly ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/372 "2015-10-15T21:51:40Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > True. > > Similarly, Slave owners almost without exception expressed love and affection for the humane they owned. What was that again about people being familiar with US history? ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/373 "2015-10-15T22:16:04Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t understand the need to label anybody, so I’m going to skip that part. If you must have a label, then call him “the poster who spends a lot of time arguing that different racial/ethnic groups have different levels of intelligence”. Labels are valuable in summarizing your thinking by showing how you categorize things. If I say “I believe such and such to be a racist…” I am stating that I observed this person to exhibit a pattern of behavior indicating they believe one race is superior to another. Your label would tell me something about what you observe. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > But, as I said above, I think that in order for someone to be a racist they have to harbor some emotional disdain for a given race. CP is, AFAICT, just following what he sees the data to be. If the data said that blacks scored higher on IQ tests, I think he’d be fine with that. That’s still a racist. I think there were many people in the 1800s who believed the slaves should be freed but still thought of black people as inherently inferior. > [@Shodan](#): > > He can and does argue his own points better than I could, but AFAICT he argues that those who self-identify as black in the US roughly correlate (about 80%) with descent from the geographic group of sub-Saharan Africans, and that there are average genetic differences between geographic groups and their descendents. And that average academic performace between blacks in the US and other groups with different geographic backgounds differs even when other factors are corrected for - SES, parental education, and some others. And he is saying that the differences in academic performance are linked to these average genetic differences between these differing geographic populations that just so happen to correspond to our societal concept of race. You know, racism. > [@Shodan](#): > > It’s debating an unpopular and extremely politically incorrect opinion. And if there wasn’t a better indicator of racism! > [@Shodan](#): > > A Doper. That argues for a racist ideology. > [@FXMastermind](#): > > Since ‘racist’ is an extreme charge, calling somebody “RACIST!” is a huge insult. Even if you are sure it’s true, it’s still an insult. Extreme, huh? Actually it is just a very common word with a specific definition that is uncontroversial in its application to many people in our society. It’s not an insult anymore than calling a person who is a serial killer a serial killer. Or a Republican a Republican. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Of course we’re straying into GD territory here, but if there are problems related to racial minorities, it would be good to understand what causes those problems. If there is a genetic component, wouldn’t it be good to know? Let’s start with changing the outcomes in this society that are readily associated with the genetics of skin color. Let’s continue to perform the research and support the policies that change our society so that the genetics of skin color is not such huge predictor of vastly differential outcomes. Since so much productive research has already gone into this topic, lets stick with it. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/374 "2015-10-15T22:32:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What was that again about people being familiar with US history? Huh? Other than my typo switching “humans” to “humane”, what do you disagree with in the above quoted passage? Southern slave owners were amongst the most literate people who ever lived and scores of their diaries show them expressing affection for their slaves whom they regarded as their children, seeing themselves as stern parents whose duty was to guide and protect their “children” who in turn served them. Numerous historians, such as Eugene Genovese, Eric Foner, and others have pointed how raw anti-black hatred in the South didn’t start till Reconstruction when people like George Fitzhugh discovered the hard way how their slaves had different views of the situation. And for anyone who wants an idea how slaveowners felt, seriously, read George Fitzhugh, one of the most vocal proponents of slavery and one of America’s first public intellectuals. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/375 "2015-10-15T22:36:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Huh? > > Other than my typo switching “humans” to “humane”, what do you disagree with in the above quoted passage? > > Southern slave owners were amongst the most literate people who ever lived and scores of their diaries show them expressing affection for their slaves whom they regarded as their children, seeing themselves as stern parents whose duty was to guide and protect their “children” who in turn served them. > > Numerous historians, such as Eugene Genovese, Eric Foner, and others have pointed how raw anti-black hatred in the South didn’t start till Reconstruction when people like George Fitzhugh discovered the hard way how their slaves had different views of the situation. > > And for anyone who wants an idea how slaveowners felt, seriously, read George Fitzhugh, one of the most vocal proponents of slavery and one of America’s first public intellectuals. I think it’s the “almost without exception” that is so jarring. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/376 "2015-10-15T22:40:56Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > Since ‘racist’ is an extreme charge, calling somebody “RACIST!” is a huge insult. Even if you are sure it’s true, it’s still an insult. Serious question. “Holocaust Denier” is also “an extreme charge”. Do you think the it’s use should always be considered an insult, even if the person using it thinks it true, and that using it in GD should entail getting a warning? If not, why? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/377 "2015-10-15T22:51:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it’s the “almost without exception” that is so jarring. Read the diaries. I had to in college and had one of the top experts in the Abolitionist movement for a professor. It is shocking and “jarring” but genuinely true. “Without exception” would have been an overstatement, but “almost without exception” is not. I went in assuming they merely viewed their slaves as livestock and at times you can find passages where they seem to do so, but for the most part, they don’t. They’re just willfully blind. Or read Genovese’s Roll, Jordan Roll. The parts where he details how rare lynchings were prior to Reconstruction and how slaves in the antebellum South accused of crimes like murder and rape were actually given trials and actually occasionally, very occasionally aquitted is shocking particularly when he contrast that to their grandchildren and great-grandchildren who were simply hanged from a tree without a second thought. Racism doesn’t require “Ill feelings” and frankly very often the the most vicious practioners genuinely thought what they were doing was for the best. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/378 "2015-10-15T23:09:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Read the diaries. I had to in college and had one of the top experts in the Abolitionist movement for a professor. It is shocking and “jarring” but genuinely true. “Without exception” would have been an overstatement, but “almost without exception” is not. > > I went in assuming they merely viewed their slaves as livestock and at times you can find passages where they seem to do so, but for the most part, they don’t. They’re just willfully blind. > > Or read Genovese’s Roll, Jordan Roll. The parts where he details how rare lynchings were prior to Reconstruction and how slaves in the antebellum South accused of crimes like murder and rape were actually given trials and actually occasionally, very occasionally aquitted is shocking particularly when he contrast that to their grandchildren and great-grandchildren who were simply hanged from a tree without a second thought. > > Racism doesn’t require “Ill feelings” and frankly very often the the most vicious practioners genuinely thought what they were doing was for the best. I’ve read some of these, along with many narratives from slaves and former slaves. I have no doubt some slave owners felt this way. But I think it was a lot fewer than “almost without exception” – we don’t have diaries from nearly every single slave-owner, so we can’t know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/379 "2015-10-15T23:41:10Z")
People love their dogs and horses, too. That doesn’t mean they think dogs and horses are their equals. The idea that slave owners had “affection” for their slaves is a complete red herring. Would you want “affection” like that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/380 "2015-10-15T23:44:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > People love their dogs and horses, too. That doesn’t mean they think dogs and horses are their equals. The idea that slave owners had “affection” for their slaves is a complete red herring. Would you want “affection” like that? I agree with this point too… Owners may have believed they loved their slaves, but then many abusers believe they love their spouses and children. Probably not love as non abusers would recognize. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/381 "2015-10-16T00:10:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > People love their dogs and horses, too. That doesn’t mean they think dogs and horses are their equals. The idea that slave owners had “affection” for their slaves is a complete red herring. Would you want “affection” like that? I think the point is that introducing the idea of emotional animus to the concept of racism muddles the issue, as many people who built their family fortunes on the idea of the racial inferiority of black people appeared to hold no such racial animus; it would require us to see a slaveowner who believes white people are uplifting their black slaves as a nonracist. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=20)