# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/21 "2015-10-11T10:44:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure why a number of posters continue to make this argument. > As noted, and confirmed by Miller, the accuracy of a claim is separate from its insulting nature. Referring to a 5’0", 350 lb. person as “fat” may be accurate, but it is still insulting. Name-calling does nothing to promote discussion. It is a way to invoke emotions to stifle discussion. One may feel that stifling certain opinions is a valid method of discussion, but that is not board policy. Further, if we open the board to allowing that sort of suppression of ideas, as enforced by the Moderators, we hand the Mods the authority to decide which ideas may be suppressed in that manner. > The rule against name-calling is based on the intent to avoid derailing threads with personal feuds. That is not going to change just because any specific poster decides that he or she finds a remark personally intolerable. I’m not so sure Miller should be the one lecturing us on this. Or for that matter, you. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/22 "2015-10-11T11:55:48Z")
Which mod would you prefer to have explain the rule to you? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/23 "2015-10-11T12:12:26Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Which mod would you prefer to have explain the rule to you? one that did not call me a bigot [miller] or say that i suffered from a poverty of debate (exact quote, i think) or was logically deficient (approximation) [Tom] ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/24 "2015-10-11T12:14:57Z")
Hell, I’m game. To (mis)quote Tommy Lee Jones in ‘The Fugitive’…"Hell, sir, you can blame me. I’m the one who shot him.’ The term ‘racist’ is clearly an insult in discussion. Whether or not you believe it to be fact or not you believe it to be true does not remove the inherent facts that it is both 1) a matter of opinion (one man’s racism is another man’s simple truth) and 2) extremely insulting and a way to attempt to shut down discussion through attack. As such, it’s not allowed. Now the post in question - [Post 161 in the ‘how many human races are there?’](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18750268&postcount=161) thread - is almost a master’s class in how to post about such things. As I said in the warning, you were doing very well until the end. > [@](#): > > What makes your point of view racist is that you hypothesize genes as the explanation, but ignore how extraordinarily unsuccessful behavior genetic studies have been in finding genes that make anything more than the tiniest contribution to some measures of intelligence. Good, you’re describing his point of view. Edging towards a problem while still only attacking the POV or the post. The following four paragraphs are well done. > [@](#): > > What makes your behavior a facet of racism is how strongly you’ve bought into this pet hypothesis without evidence, while discounting the hypothesis that has far stronger evidence. It seems as though as you approach the evidence with your conclusion determined. Very close to the edge - on it, really - with the mention of ‘your behavior’. Not recommended. > [@](#): > > This leaves people like me assured with the idea that you’re a racist and this isn’t about science and finding justice for a taboo hypothesis, this is about your politics. You could disguise that more if in the future you show more doubt about your hypothesis and pretend to respect the huge number of studies showing disparities in the environments within which white and black people grow. And that’s enough’ ‘You’re a racist’ is not a good idea in any thread regardless of circumstances. Although I do find the inherent admission that this is a matter of opinion - “This leaves people like me…” - interesting in that it takes out the concept that the accusation is fact. Again, the overarching concern in GD and Elections is that what promotes discussion and debate is good and what breaks those things down is bad. Making accusations and such is - almost by definition - detrimental to debate. Really, it sometimes astonishes me how protective people can become over their supposed right to call each other names. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/25 "2015-10-11T12:29:02Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Really, it sometimes astonishes me how protective people can become over their supposed right to call each other names. [12](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18762331&postcount=12) ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/26 "2015-10-11T12:37:17Z")
Which returns us to Tom’s point of whether we really want moderators to control for content. It is a very bad idea to declare ‘this idea is repugnant and therefore is outside our protection’. That sort of thing WOULD lead to horrific consequences. I think no one wants that. To think the ‘don’t be a jerk’ rule should apply to specific ideas is to massively misinterpret it. It’s designed to foster an open environment in which people can’t be insulted nor denigrated. It is not designed to prevent people from speaking their minds provided they do so civilly (the BBQ Pit excepted). You seem to be thinking that ‘don’t be a jerk’ should be applied to people you believe are being jerks - for whatever reason - without ever considering whether someone might think that you are being a jerk for possibly some other reason or positive you hold. Should we, then, forbid both of you from presenting your ideas? Or lift the rule on insults on both of you? One way leads to GD and Elections hearing the sound of crickets and the other leads them to being another version of the Pit. Neither is an ideal outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/27 "2015-10-11T12:45:27Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Which returns us to Tom’s point of whether we really want moderators to control for content. It is a very bad idea to declare ‘this idea is repugnant and therefore is outside our protection’. That sort of thing WOULD lead to horrific consequences. I think no one wants that. > > To think the ‘don’t be a jerk’ rule should apply to specific ideas is to massively misinterpret it. It’s designed to foster an open environment in which people can’t be insulted nor denigrated. It is not designed to prevent people from speaking their minds provided they do so civilly (the BBQ Pit excepted). > > You seem to be thinking that ‘don’t be a jerk’ should be applied to people you believe are being jerks - for whatever reason - without ever considering whether someone might think that you are being a jerk for possibly some other reason or positive you hold. Should we, then, forbid both of you from presenting your ideas? Or lift the rule on insults on both of you? One way leads to GD and Elections hearing the sound of crickets and the other leads them to being another version of the Pit. Neither is an ideal outcome. Don’t be a jerk? What a joke. This whole place is one big cesspool of dysfunction, cynicism and hostility. You can insinuate 97 different ways that someone is stupid… but what you can’t do is actually call someone stupid. Eve if they say something stupid. There are plenty of people here who do not engage in such politics. But, if you want an honest appraisal of the SDMB, it’s nothing but a debate club for otherwise intelligent people to come and out duel one another with snide remarks and condescending insinuations. Again, not everyone is like that… but far too many are. The idea that the moderators enforce the “don’t be a jerk rule” is simply not accurate. What has been settled for, instead, is that you can’t call anyone a racist or call them stupid. But the overall climate of condescension and rude remarks seems to be very well tolerated. I think you should either dispense with the “don’t be a jerk rule” or, actually enforce it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/28 "2015-10-11T12:59:01Z")
While I don’t really have a problem calling certain posters racists if they say racist things, I try to avoid using that term to describe individual posters. I think it’s entirely possible to disagree vehemently and show the weakness and even the immorality of racist arguments without calling them racists. On the other hand, I’m pretty sure I’ve called a certain poster (not **CP** ) a ‘white supremacist’ multiple times without any issue. Perhaps this is because this poster said openly white supremacist things, like some variation of ‘all non-white people should go away’. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/29 "2015-10-11T13:15:34Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But, if you want an honest appraisal of the SDMB, it’s nothing but a debate club for otherwise intelligent people to come and out duel one another with snide remarks and condescending insinuations. In what way is this being a jerk? It’s half the reason I come here. Good grief man, have you read Cecil’s columns? To use your own observation, if you don’t like snark and insinuation, you are in the wrong place. But we do draw the line at direct insults, especially when they are subjective judgments about character. Which racism is. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/30 "2015-10-11T14:35:05Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > It’s designed to foster an open environment in which people can’t be insulted nor denigrated. I’m insulted and denigrated every time someone suggests my entire continent is, on average, functionally retarded. Or uses the proven bad research that claims that, to bolster other points. ---
**Author:** ![Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/aca169/32.png) [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inbred_Mm_domesticus)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/31 "2015-10-11T14:45:41Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What if I call a gay male poster a cocksucker? Can I get away with saying that isn’t an insult because, presumably, he performs oral sex on other men? If a gay male poster self-identifies as gay can’t I call him gay? Gay is not an insulting term while cocksucker is. One describes a set of beliefs and behaviors while the other reduces a person to a sex act. It’s unfortunate for CP that his beliefs and acts can classify him as a racist because in today’s society that’s looked down upon. Too bad for him. > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The problem with this argument is that while Trump is factually a Republican and Obama is factually a Democrat, allegations of racism are usually a judgement call or matter of opinion, and therefore open to debate as to their factual merit. IOW, to you **CP** is a racist, to someone else he might not be. Therefore your argument that you’re merely calling **CP** what he factually is lacks merit. He self-identifies as a person who believes that members of one race are inherently superior to members of another race. What other term should I use for it? > [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure why a number of posters continue to make this argument. > As noted, and confirmed by Miller, the accuracy of a claim is separate from its insulting nature. Referring to a 5’0", 350 lb. person as “fat” may be accurate, but it is still insulting. Name-calling does nothing to promote discussion. There is certainly better terms, like obese, but what happens when the term because such a big problem that you cannot discuss an important medical issue with a severely fat person. I am just trying to help CP understand that his thousands of hours posting the same shit over and over again is just due to the fact that he is a simple garden-variety racist. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/32 "2015-10-11T15:04:11Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > We can claim that the ideas are racist; we cant claim that the person is racist. No, that’s not true. The mods have repeatedly ruled that it is permissible to use the term racist to describe other posters so long as it’s not used as an insult. The difference is some mods think that anytime the term “racist” is used to describe another poster it constitutes being used as an insult. I’ll confess that I don’t like the policy and find it exceedingly silly. Yes, racists don’t like be called racists, but people who insist that the idea that 6 million Jews were killed by the Nazis get angry when someone calls them a “Holocaust Denier” and insist they’re not really Holocaust Deniers just “skeptics” or “just asking questions” or “haven’t made up their minds yet”. The same is true regarding “truthers” or “birthers” yet as far as a I know, no mods have ever taken such a stance against those terms. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/33 "2015-10-11T15:08:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I have no problem with not being able to call people racists. But that should come with some assurances that blatant racism will be moderated under the “Don’t be a jerk” rule, and not treated like a legitimate exchange of ideas. I agree with this. If mods are going to argue that the term “racist” is so vile that it’s automatically an insult then they should also be consistent and declare that being racist is “being a jerk”. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/34 "2015-10-11T15:10:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I’m insulted and denigrated every time someone suggests my entire continent is, on average, functionally retarded. Or uses the proven bad research that claims that, to bolster other points. But Dibble it is only “argument” and “discussion” for them to state baldly that we are inherently inferior, but if you use the noun that is in the english the word for ‘a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority’ then this is horribly insulting to the persons who are stating such an argument directly and on an american board this is just too insulting to be tolerated and is jerkish, totally unlike to argue directly for our inherent genetic inferiority which that is only a discussion. Tout est clair. The nouns are forbidden. The door of reasoning is closed. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/35 "2015-10-11T15:13:17Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I am not sure why a number of posters continue to make this argument. > As noted, and confirmed by Miller, the accuracy of a claim is separate from its insulting nature. Referring to a 5’0", 350 lb. person as “fat” may be accurate, but it is still insulting. Name-calling does nothing to promote discussion. It is a way to invoke emotions to stifle discussion. One may feel that stifling certain opinions is a valid method of discussion, but that is not board policy. Further, if we open the board to allowing that sort of suppression of ideas, as enforced by the Moderators, we hand the Mods the authority to decide which ideas may be suppressed in that manner. > The rule against name-calling is based on the intent to avoid derailing threads with personal feuds. That is not going to change just because any specific poster decides that he or she finds a remark personally intolerable. Yes, but you’ve never explained why the term “racist” is automatically considered name calling. Yes, people who are racist get upset if they’re called it, but as I mentioned earlier people who you, I and just about everyone else would consider a “Holocaust Denier” a “truther” or a “birther” get upset when they get called that as well. So, why is it? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/36 "2015-10-11T15:13:55Z")
I just wanted to check in here to defend the reputation of my valued SDMB. > [@Robert163](#): > > … > > This whole place is one big cesspool of dysfunction, cynicism and hostility. No it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/37 "2015-10-11T15:17:56Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > He self-identifies as a person who believes that members of one race are inherently superior to members of another race. What other term should I use for it? It seems anything but the noun of the ordinary english defintion… > [@](#): > > I am just trying to help CP understand that his thousands of hours posting the same shit over and over again is just due to the fact that he is a simple garden-variety racist. I do not think this is not understood, although the evasions like in the [ebola health care](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=738860&highlight=ebola+competent&page=3)competency thread became amusing. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/38 "2015-10-11T15:27:44Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, but you’ve never explained why the term “racist” is automatically considered name calling. > > Yes, people who are racist get upset if they’re called it, but as I mentioned earlier people who you, I and just about everyone else would consider a “Holocaust Denier” a “truther” or a “birther” get upset when they get called that as well. > > So, why is it? Because the accusation of being a racist in the 21st century is one of the worst things to be accused of. Its like being accused of being a witch in the 17th century. Sometimes even the simple accusation is enough to destroy a persons reputation. All that aside, it will also derail a thread. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/39 "2015-10-11T15:37:17Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > It’s unfortunate for CP that his beliefs and acts can classify him as a racist because in today’s society that’s looked down upon. Too bad for him. > > He self-identifies as a person who believes that members of one race are inherently superior to members of another race. What other term should I use for it? > > . That is not his position. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/40 "2015-10-11T15:45:43Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > That is not his position. No his position is that until proven by an unattainable proof, it is to be asserted and assumed that the persons of the recent and obvious by skin african descent are a single race and they are of a inferior mental genetic heritage. The holding of this position can not possibly meet the english noun definition of ‘a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority’ He will massage this with “on average” and then proceed to misuse the statistical concepts to continue to assert the racist argument. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, but you’ve never explained why the term “racist” is automatically considered name calling. > > Yes, people who are racist get upset if they’re called it, but as I mentioned earlier people who you, I and just about everyone else would consider a “Holocaust Denier” a “truther” or a “birther” get upset when they get called that as well. > > So, why is it? it is obvious that for the current moderation they should be consistent and ban all the nouns describing a person that can be deranging, to be a Holocaust Denier is the worst thing to be accused of in the 20 and 21 century West. Very clearly by the logic applied this must not derail the conversations about if the jews in europe really died in numbers, etc… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=3)