# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/402 "2015-10-17T06:02:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here, > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=771623&page=2](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=771623&page=2) > in post 75,\*\* Really Not All That Bright\*\* > > Posts:\* "In other threads **Construct** has been quite open about his racism. "\* > > Is that not calling him a racist? šŸ˜• Iā€™ll ask again- why was **Inbred Mm domesticus** given a warning yet the same thing by **Really Not All That Bright** is ignored? Favoritism? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/403 "2015-10-17T14:05:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That might be a difference in what they **are**. Is there any difference in what they **mean**? That is, if I am saying a post is antisemitic (evincing a mistrust of Jews), unless I am accusing the poster of lying, I am accusing the poster of being antisemitic (mistrusting Jews). > > I understand the idea that we should attack ideas, not people, but I think the particular way the board draws the line is arbitrary and nonproductive. Correctly identifying a poster as following a particular ideology is far more useful to discussion than, say, calling a post stupid. The identification of a poster as operating in a certain set of beliefs can actually facilitate conversation, even though it breaks the boardā€™s current rules, whereas saying, ā€œThis is the dumbest post Iā€™ve ever readā€ does nothing to facilitate conversation, even though it follows the boardā€™s current rules. If those were the only two choices youā€™d have a point. But theyā€™re not. Surely you know that so iā€™m surprised youā€™d even imply that they were. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/404 "2015-10-17T14:30:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If those were the only two choices youā€™d have a point. But theyā€™re not. Surely you know that so iā€™m surprised youā€™d even imply that they were. Believe me, Iā€™m just as surprised that anyone could read that post and infer that Iā€™m implying any such thing. Would you mind rereading the post and seeing if you can find any other possible interpretation of what I said? ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/405 "2015-10-17T14:40:45Z")
If I say I mistrust the members of ISIS, does that make me an anti-Arab? (Anti-Moslem?) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/406 "2015-10-17T14:42:05Z")
> [@FXMastermind](#): > > If I say I mistrust the members of ISIS, does that make me an anti-Arab? (Anti-Moslem?) Garden path. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/407 "2015-10-17T14:45:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I understand the idea that we should attack ideas, not people, but I think the particular way the board draws the line is arbitrary and nonproductive. That may be true. It wonā€™t change anything however. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/408 "2015-10-17T18:03:22Z")
I have to wonder why **Scandic** ā€™s thread got moved to the Pit _tout suite_, when scientific racism threads can linger in GD basically foreverā€¦ I mean, I donā€™t _want_ to think that thereā€™s something, some special quality about Jews, that us poor genetically retarded Africans donā€™t get to share, that means they get the ability to have free rein on antisemites, but we have to put up with the GD language restrictions. But recent mod actions donā€™t dissuade me. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/409 "2015-10-17T18:57:24Z")
Give the martyr complex a rest. I moved that sucker because there was no debate occurring. It was nothing but mockery and that belongs in the Pit. As long as thereā€™s - polite - debate threads stay in Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2015, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/410 "2015-10-17T22:31:36Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Give the martyr complex a rest. > > I moved that sucker because there was no debate occurring. It was nothing but mockery and that belongs in the Pit. As long as thereā€™s - polite - debate threads stay in Great Debates. I would not have worded Dibbleā€™s post the way he did, but honestly I donā€™t see how any any reasonable person whoā€™s familiar with the history of this message board could find his suggestion of a double standard objectionable. Weā€™ve had at least one mod, Dex,say that heā€™s more than willing to mod statements about Jews that he wouldnā€™t about Muslims. Weā€™ve also had at least one poster who claimed Jews had a dream tendency to engage in terrorism which got him an immediate warning that was promptly upgraded to an instaban. Muslims of course are subjected to numerous such statements without even having a mod note, and mods insisting such posts while objectionable arenā€™t in violation of the rules. Can you really blame Dibble for wondering? Beyond that, on a more serious note, as someone who does sincerely respect you while disagreeing with you and even butting heads with you. There are posts to accuse posters of engaging in ā€œmartyr complexesā€. There are posts to proclaim the need for ā€œpolite discussionā€. They arenā€™t the same post. And FTR, Iā€™m hardly a role model where such is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/411 "2015-10-18T01:26:05Z")
If you guys donā€™t want to give attention to these alleged Scientific Racists, just donā€™t engage with them. As long as you do, theyā€™re going to be here. Itā€™s only 2 or 3 posters here who bother. Or, if you just canā€™t resist responding, open an omnibus Pit thread, and whenever they post, refer them to that thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/412 "2015-10-18T01:43:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you guys donā€™t want to give attention to these alleged Scientific Racists, just donā€™t engage with them. As long as you do, theyā€™re going to be here. Itā€™s only 2 or 3 posters here who bother. > > Or, if you just canā€™t resist responding, open an omnibus Pit thread, and whenever they post, refer them to that thread. Heh. ā€œalleged Scientific Racistsā€. True, I donā€™t know why so many Jews get butthurt over that ā€œallegedā€ Holocaust Denier, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Iā€™m sure they would react well to my telling them to get over it and their response wouldnā€™t be something along the lines of ā€œthatā€™s easy for you to sayā€. Granted, Iā€™m sure that youā€™re outraged by my suggestion that Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust Denier, which to your mind, if youā€™re intellectually consistent, is a huge insult and ā€œname callingā€. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/413 "2015-10-18T01:50:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you guys donā€™t want to give attention to these alleged Scientific Racists, just donā€™t engage with them. As long as you do, theyā€™re going to be here. Itā€™s only 2 or 3 posters here who bother. > > Or, if you just canā€™t resist responding, open an omnibus Pit thread, and whenever they post, refer them to that thread. I think itā€™s important that such claims be challenged ā€“ their minds probably arenā€™t going to change, but itā€™s important that others who donā€™t know about the issue should see the weakness of such arguments, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/414 "2015-10-18T03:04:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think itā€™s important that such claims be challenged ā€“ their minds probably arenā€™t going to change, but itā€™s important that others who donā€™t know about the issue should see the weakness of such arguments, in my view. How many times is it ā€œimportantā€ to challenge the exact same guy on the exact same issue with the exact same cites? Andā€¦ there are different ways to ā€œchallengeā€ someone. Some keep his ideas out there, others donā€™t. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/415 "2015-10-18T03:08:43Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How many times is it ā€œimportantā€ to challenge the exact same guy on the exact same issue with the exact same cites? I donā€™t know. Perhaps until posters we respect are able to acknowledge that said posters are ā€œracistsā€ rather than ā€œallegedā€ racists. Sadly, some people just donā€™t get it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/416 "2015-10-18T05:06:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I donā€™t know. Perhaps until posters we respect are able to acknowledge that said posters are ā€œracistsā€ rather than ā€œallegedā€ racists. > > Sadly, some people just donā€™t get it. Then I guess youā€™ll be doing this for a long time. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/417 "2015-10-18T05:27:31Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Give the martyr complex a rest. > > I moved that sucker because there was no debate occurring. It was nothing but mockery and that belongs in the Pit. As long as thereā€™s - polite - debate threads stay in Great Debates. Iā€™m sorry Jonathan, but this is terrible moderating. It puts the power in the hands of people ā€“ who I agree with ā€“ who want debates moved to the pit. There was a very brief period, maybe six or seven years ago, when a few anti-gun types tried the same tactic. A technical discussion about guns would show up in GQ they would pollute the thread and it would get moved to the pit. Right now, with what you just said, my take-away is that if I, or Dibble or LHOD or whoever, doesnā€™t want to see scumbag racists pretending that science supports them, I should mark them until the thread is moved to the pit where they can properly be called the racist douchebags they are. And if I canā€™t do that, why can people do it to anti-Jewish threads? I am Jewish, and Iā€™m glad the thread was moved. But there really does seem to be a double standard. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/418 "2015-10-18T08:02:58Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Give the martyr complex a rest. This would be the insult-free moderation replies weā€™ve been told are the order of the day in _ATMB_, then? > [@](#): > > I moved that sucker because there was no debate occurring. It was nothing but mockery and that belongs in the Pit. As long as thereā€™s - polite - debate threads stay in Great Debates. No real debate occurs in the scientific racism threads, itā€™s the same tired (and personalized!) argument by **CP**. Hey, hereā€™s a suggestion - if weā€™re not allowed to call **CP** a racist in GD, how about you ban him from using ā€œegalitarianā€, which he uses in exactly the same way, even when heā€™s been asked not to by those heā€™s applying it to. And\*\* John Mace\*\*, you may notice I havenā€™t actually responded to **Chief** ā€™s ā€œpointsā€ in a while. I realized he was just repeating himself in that same thread, like some kind of one-topic 'bot. Usually he only loops around that blatantly in the next thread. **iiandyiiii** has a lot more patience for that than I have. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/419 "2015-10-18T11:50:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The only trouble with this statement is that it is false. **Chief Pedant** has never stated that race is the primary determinant of human traits. It is of course quoting the dictionary definition, the italics. I am comfortable that itis indicative enough and highlighted the logical contortions of the moderation decisions even if one is very foolish or deliberately obtuse to take a dictionary definition narrowly. > [@](#): > > If you have a cite to the contrary, where he has stated that it is the primary determinant, bring it out, but you donā€™t. iiandyii has given enough proofs that behind the indirection, it is the motivating analysis. Otherwise his positions make literally no sense at all. the conclusion has come first, and everything else is fitted to it. > [@](#): > > It is rather like your mistake in the Pit thread there was no mistake, I am very comfortable with the analysis that the persons who makes the statement that an entire religion is bad but then adds in the camoflaguing langauge of the Good Jew etc. is merely engaging in either a self deception or as likely engaging the discourse of the plausible deniability that is the typical strategeme of persons pushing extremist and/or socially unsanctioned ideas. For the political tribalist, of course unless the statements wear fly the obvious colors of the Klan or whatever, there is always the cover to deny. > [@Shodan](#): > > In **Chief Pedant** ā€™s case, he has been known to follow up with a statement in support of race-based affirmative action. confusion of the politics as the usual for political tribalism and the fundamental position. There is no contradiction or necessary connection between support of such a policy and belief that a race is inferior, although without doubt in the american politics the racist position on one side helps support the dislike of the policy. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I am acquiring cold feet regarding my stance on the use of the word racist in GD. On the one hand, itā€™s a 20 megaton insult when applied to somebody who wants to cut welfare spending. of course this is again true that for a political position that has many different drivers and reasons, that there it is likely to be almost always the name calling, if we mean in name calling using the nouns with the primary intention merely to damage. It is to me different than when it is the direct discussion of the genetic qualities of asserted races and when one sees again and again rhetorical games > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Heā€™s wrong about me here ā€“ I donā€™t believe that black people are inferior intelligence, but he straight up admits that he does in this post. the strange contortions of the Ebola conversation with the avoidance of admitting any competence by the black medical staffs, the avoidance of the european data - like the united kingdom education testing data of two generations of africans that make nonsense of a reliance of the American education testing data to draw strong conclusions about a genetical basis of testing gapsā€¦ these all are things that have shown this to anyone who has followed. Even his use of the statistics and asserting the statements about average - one can feel he knows better than the bad analysis when talking about a population simple average that by its inputs is very likely to have very skewed distributions of the traits and of the expressionā€¦ But since the simple direct noun for the phrase of what is clear is forbidden and his own rhetorical game of egalitarian goes by, and the moderation remains in its own perfect closed reasoning, then it is best to follow the same method as CP. It is the appearances that count most. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/420 "2015-10-18T12:25:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > How many times is it ā€œimportantā€ to challenge the exact same guy on the exact same issue with the exact same cites? > > Andā€¦ there are different ways to ā€œchallengeā€ someone. Some keep his ideas out there, others donā€™t. For me, at least, as long as someone posts wrong stuff, Iā€™ll be fine with challenging it (and even mocking it, sometimes). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/421 "2015-10-18T13:09:54Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > It is of course quoting the dictionary definition, the italics. I am comfortable that itis indicative enough and highlighted the logical contortions of the moderation decisions even if one is very foolish or deliberately obtuse to take a dictionary definition narrowly. If you are comfortable making false statements and refusing to back them up (because they are false), then thatā€™s unfortunate. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=22)