# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/442 "2015-10-18T20:47:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It is not being used as an insult. Yeah, no, but it is, though. > [@](#): > > We know this because “egalitarian” is not insulting. It is the way he’s using it i.e. as an unwanted, disowned, label for his debate opponents he’s aware they don’t like and have asked him to stop using. > [@](#): > > Now, you and others might feel that it mischaracterizes your position, or that it is a strawman. Fine, argue that Been done. > [@](#): > > , if you find him unyielding, then either try another way to convince him or just say the hell with him and bow out of the talk. Like I said, you’ll note I’m not debating him once he restarted that egalitarian crap. I just find it amusing that you think his use of egalitarian is in any way different from our use of racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/443 "2015-10-18T20:48:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My guess is that if he did that, it was to describe them as inferior on one metric. That doesn’t equate to them being inferior as people. If one race is “inferior” on the metric of height, or another race is “inferior” on the metric of “speed”, that doesn’t mean that the race, itself, is inferior. That’s a charitable way to interpret it, which is your prerogative. I don’t interpret it in the same way. I think it’s reasonable to call an assertion that calls black people “inferior for intelligence” as a racist assertion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/444 "2015-10-18T20:51:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My guess is that if he did that, it was to describe them as inferior on one metric. That doesn’t equate to them being inferior as people. If one race is “inferior” on the metric of height, or another race is “inferior” on the metric of “speed”, that doesn’t mean that the race, itself, is inferior. This is moving the goalposts - _first_ it was ‘you’re conflating “less intelligent” with “inferior”’, _now_ it’s ‘oh, but he used inferior in a specific way’. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/445 "2015-10-18T20:55:51Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I just find it amusing that you think his use of egalitarian is in any way different from our use of racist. I find it VERY different. Honestly. In our society I think the only thing that is a bigger insult then racist is pedophile. That said, why does the term “egalitarian” even come up? If everyone agrees that genes are not dispersed in egalitarian manner, and if everyone agrees that intelligence does likely have a genetic component, why is it repeatedly brought up. Which of those positions is being pushed back on for being seated in an egalitarian outlook? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/446 "2015-10-18T20:58:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is moving the goalposts - _first_ it was ‘you’re conflating “less intelligent” with “inferior”’, _now_ it’s ‘oh, but he used inferior in a specific way’. No it’s not. It’s responding to two different claims: 1) Are blacks inferior? 2) are blacks inferior on a specific metric? Are Asians an inferior race because they might be “inferior” on the metric of height? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/447 "2015-10-18T21:00:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I find it VERY different. Honestly. In our society I think the only thing that is a bigger insult then racist is pedophile. Personally, I find “retarded” to be a bigger insult, as in “your entire continent is functionally retarded.” YMMV. > [@](#): > > That said, why does the term “egalitarian” even come up? I don’t know, it’s **CP** ’s strawman, ask him. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/448 "2015-10-18T21:01:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That’s a charitable way to interpret it, which is your prerogative. I don’t interpret it in the same way. I think it’s reasonable to call an assertion that calls black people “inferior for intelligence” as a racist assertion. And this brings us back to nature. You’ve said that nature is not/cannot be racist. So if I make a statement that reflects nature, e.g., “Asians are shorter than other races”, is that racist? It’s racial, but it lacks the animus of thought that is required for it to qualify AS RACIST. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/449 "2015-10-18T21:04:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No it’s not. It’s responding to two different claims: 1) Are blacks inferior? 2) are blacks inferior on a specific metric? Are Asians an inferior race because they might be “inferior” on the metric of height? It’s disingenuous to pretend that intelligence is like any other metric used for these purposes - not height, not skin colour, not hair, not muscle twitchiness, not even disease prevalence. Intelligence is about who we as human beings, fundamentally. Yes, saying some group is intrinsically of inferior intelligence _is_ saying they are fundamentally inferior human beings, in a way no common other metric would be. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/450 "2015-10-18T21:04:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > No it’s not. It’s responding to two different claims: 1) Are blacks inferior? 2) are blacks inferior on a specific metric? Are Asians an inferior race because they might be “inferior” on the metric of height? I don’t find these claims different for certain characteristics. Would you defend, to the same degree, a claim that “black people are inferior in morality” due to genes, with the cite of criminal statistics? I hope not. For me, intelligence is as fundamentally human a characteristic that goes to the very core of what it is to be human as much as morality, and claims of a certain race’s inferiority in both of these characteristics have been fundamental to various forms of brutality and oppression. The same cannot be said of claims about height, skin color, medical susceptibility, or other characteristics not a significant part of what makes us humans. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/451 "2015-10-18T21:05:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And this brings us back to nature. You’ve said that nature is not/cannot be racist. So if I make a statement that reflects nature, e.g., “Asians are shorter than other races”, is that racist? It’s racial, but it lacks the animus of thought that is required for it to qualify AS RACIST. Nature doesn’t classify people into races at all. That’s all on you, **magellan**. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/452 "2015-10-18T21:06:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And this brings us back to nature. You’ve said that nature is not/cannot be racist. So if I make a statement that reflects nature, e.g., “Asians are shorter than other races”, is that racist? It’s racial, but it lacks the animus of thought that is required for it to qualify AS RACIST. No, it’s not racist. Height is not intelligence – height hasn’t been used to justify oppression and discrimination; intelligence has. I don’t believe “animus of thought” is required for racism. Some slave-owners thought they were doing slaves a favor by owning them and controlling their lives; they were still racists. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/453 "2015-10-18T22:44:07Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe “animus of thought” is required for racism. Some slave-owners thought they were doing slaves a favor by owning them and controlling their lives; they were still racists. Thinking that you are doing someone a favor by owning them and controlling every aspect of their lives doesn’t constitute “animus of thought” towards that human being? Is that some aspect to progressive thought that I have been unaware of all these years? Slave owners may have had “affection” for the slave, but only as long as _the human being behind the slave_ accepted the slave system en entirety. The “affection” disappeared quickly if the slave ever tried to asset himself _as a human being_. That’s your “animus of thought” right there. I’m really shocked that you can’t see it. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/454 "2015-10-18T22:56:01Z")
An insult can still be an insult, even when true. If I said to someone, “You’re ugly and you have a small dick” it would be insulting even if he _were_ ugly and had a small dick. Just so with racist. In any case the term is so inflammatory that its introduction (as descriptive of a poster) pretty much precludes all intelligent discussion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/455 "2015-10-18T22:58:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, it’s not racist. Height is not intelligence – height hasn’t been used to justify oppression and discrimination; intelligence has. I don’t believe “animus of thought” is required for racism. Some slave-owners thought they were doing slaves a favor by owning them and controlling their lives; they were still racists. But that’s really beside the point. Nature does’t know that height is a minor trait, speed is a minor trait, and intelligence is some all-important trait. I’m sure where we can point to species where either stature or speed or strength or vision or X is the most important trait. The fact is that intelligence is either spread equally among the races or it isn’t. Even you’ve allowed that that MAY be the case, negligible as it may be. So, if it turns out that it IS the case (we find an intelligence gene and can speak about it definitively), is mentioning this fact of nature racist? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/456 "2015-10-18T23:02:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Thinking that you are doing someone a favor by owning them and controlling every aspect of their lives doesn’t constitute “animus of thought” towards that human being? Is that some aspect to progressive thought that I have been unaware of all these years? I imagine this is a difference in interpretation rather than philosophy. I don’t believe the concept of evil requires “animus of thought”. People can do evil without such animus – they may want certain people to be harmed but they don’t care if they are; they may not want certain people to be harmed but are too weak of mind to resist the orders that do harm (i.e. the Milgram experiment); and in cases like this they may _honestly believe_ that black people are not capable of running their own lives and need to be taken care of. That’s evil (and incredibly evil – among the most evil things ever done, in my view), but it doesn’t require “animus of thought”, it seems to me. > [@](#): > > Slave owners may have had “affection” for the slave, but only as long as _the human being behind the slave_ accepted the slave system en entirety. The “affection” disappeared quickly if the slave ever tried to asset himself _as a human being_. That’s your “animus of thought” right there. I’m really shocked that you can’t see it. What you describe is “animus of thought”, but I think it’s highly likely that some slave owners had this “affection” _even for resisting and uncooperative slaves_, honestly believing they were helping them by punishing and disciplining them. Incredible evil stuff – really, really awful. Atrocities and brutality and some of the worst oppression in human history. And not always, in my view, requiring “animus of thought”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/457 "2015-10-18T23:04:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, if it turns out that it IS the case (we find an intelligence gene and can speak about it definitively), is mentioning this fact of nature racist? I would evaluate this if such evidence was presented. Right now, without such evidence, making this claim is definitely racist, it seems to me. Right now it’s a very easy call. If different evidence is presented, I’m happy to evaluate that. Based on what’s put forward currently by those claiming black people are inherently intellectually inferior due to genes it doesn’t come close, and I feel fine calling these claims racist. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/458 "2015-10-18T23:08:30Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t believe the concept of evil requires “animus of thought”. People can do evil without such animus – they may want certain people to be harmed but they don’t care if they are This part should read “they may **not** want certain people to be harmed but they don’t care if they are”, as in they don’t care one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/459 "2015-10-18T23:19:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I > What you describe is “animus of thought”, but I think it’s highly likely that some slave owners had this “affection” _even for resisting and uncooperative slaves_, honestly believing they were helping them by punishing and disciplining them. > > . Well, when posters like CP start making noises about owning black people, controlling black people and using the statistics of the group (as they see them) to make judgements about any given individual then you might have a point. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/460 "2015-10-18T23:24:17Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Well, when posters like CP start making noises about owning black people, controlling black people and using the statistics of the group (as they see them) to make judgements about any given individual then you might have a point. I don’t understand what you’re saying here. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/461 "2015-10-19T00:08:35Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > More generally, if I were to encounter a Holocaust Denier, I’d rather spend my time debating the actual evidence than call him a Denier. I don’t see much gained by that. …and yet, in the first sentence I quoted, you called such an opponent a Holocaust Denier :). Obviously you see the benefit that the rest of us see: trying to tapdance around the term makes the conversation clunky and unwieldy, and **avoiding** the precise, accurate term has no benefit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=24)