# Racist is not an insult when a person is a racist. **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 11, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241 "2015-10-11T05:19:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/462 "2015-10-19T00:13:53Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, he has repeatedly claimed he’s never denied the Holocaust merely that far, far fewer than six million Jews were killed and that the numbers were grossly exaggerated by evil Zionists to justify the creation of Israel. > > He insists this is not the same as denying the Holocaust and finds the term “Holocaust Denier” offensive. … > > If you disagree then please explain why calling a racist “a racist” is an insult, but calling someone like Ahmadinejad “a Holocaust Denier” isn’t? > > Thanks > [@magellan01](#): > > This is hard to answer in the abstract… Nitpick: actually Ibn’s use of an example makes this pretty concrete I’d say. (For which he deserves kudos.) Ibn: You need to look at a) whether the target feels insulted, b) common usage and c) some sort of reasonable person test. Not all factors will necessarily align, but they don’t need to. Ahmadinejad may say he is insulted, but that’s outweighed if he maintains that, say, 50,000 jews were killed by the Nazis. Because that’s not a holocaust or maybe even genocide as commonly understood. Also, “Denier” isn’t really an especially hot button word. Shifting, if somebody called me a UFO denier that would probably be fair even if I retorted that of course I believe that some flying objects are not identified. I’m just saying that weird stuff in the sky is unlikely to be alien spacecraft. As the terms are commonly understood, “UFO denier” is a fair characterization. > [@magellan01](#): > > More generally, if I were to encounter a Holocaust Denier, I’d rather spend my time debating the actual evidence than call him a Denier. I don’t see much gained by that. … I see a lot gained by that in a thread hijack. It’s inappropriate to feed certain obsessions or posts made primarily with the intent of eliciting a reaction. To make an analogy, while scholars of World War II are happy to present evidence regarding war atrocities and worse, legitimate ones don’t have public debates with Holocaust Deniers. They don’t want to give an impression that there’s actually an underlying controversy, as opposed to an exercise in highly motivated reasoning, cherry picking and willful evasion of evidence. I agree that “Racist” in today’s world usually implies racial animus. But not always. Ibn pointed out to me the trope of a racist grandmother who can be a rather different character than David Duke. Ibn assures me that animus is most definitely not a necessary aspect when the word is used by people of color in the US. And indeed the phrase, “Institutional racism” specifically implies the lack of necessary animus: it could very well involve neglect for example. My problem with debating early 20th century style racists is that they all too often have little knowledge of or even interest in standard deviation, never mind [R-squared](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_determination) or [omitted variable bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omitted-variable_bias). I sometimes considering engaging them, then I ask myself why I should waste my fucking time. And when they are embedded in hijacks, a lot of these discussions are rude at best, trolling at worst. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/463 "2015-10-19T00:14:04Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > In any case the term is so inflammatory that its introduction (as descriptive of a poster) pretty much precludes all intelligent discussion. Oh, piffle. This is such a common, and silly, reaction, that academics have come up with a bit of jargon for it: [white fragility syndrome](http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race). It’s perfectly possible to continue the conversation if someone says you’re racist, or you’ve done something racist. If we treat “racist” as such a big bugaboo that as soon as the word’s said we cover our ears and sing LALALALALA, racism is gonna hang around forever. We gotta be able to talk about it, acknowledge it, and analyze it. We gotta stop acting like nobody we know is racist. The greatest trick the racists ever pulled, they say, was to convince the world they didn’t exist. Let’s not fall for it. ---
**Author:** ![Sealybobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sealybobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sealybobo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/464 "2015-10-19T00:17:20Z")
Does every white racist think they are better than Ben Carson, colon Powell or condi Rice? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/465 "2015-10-19T00:21:19Z")
> [@Sealybobo](#): > > Does every white racist think they are better than Ben Carson, colon Powell or condi Rice? I seriously doubt it – I’ve known many racists who thought there were some small number of decent and even high quality black people, but who thought the vast majority of black people were violent, stupid, or otherwise not capable of living in decent society. As a kid, I recall a contractor my parents hired (and subsequently fired after hearing him speak in this way) saying openly “you take ten [black people] and put 'em against a wall, and nine of 'em aren’t worth the bullet you’d put in their heads”. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/466 "2015-10-19T00:22:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > …and yet, in the first sentence I quoted, you called such an opponent a Holocaust Denier :). Obviously you see the benefit that the rest of us see: trying to tapdance around the term makes the conversation clunky and unwieldy, and **avoiding** the precise, accurate term has no benefit. :rolleyes: It was the term I was asked to address. ---
**Author:** ![Sealybobo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sealybobo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sealybobo)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/467 "2015-10-19T00:26:18Z")
I try to have an honest conversation with blacks on what they could do as a community to clean up their inner cities and they call me a racist. But then today on George stephanopolis they had a piece on a police community outreach program and it confirmed there is so much that should be and can be done internally. Otherwise we’re just wasting our time. Time to pull up the pants and stop not raising your children well. This they could change themselves. But I don’t think they can’t change. They just won’t. At least not yet. I understand all they’re arguments. Starting to get old. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/468 "2015-10-19T00:27:07Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh, piffle. This is such a common, and silly, reaction, that academics have come up with a bit of jargon for it: [white fragility syndrome](http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race). It’s perfectly possible to continue the conversation if someone says you’re racist, or you’ve done something racist. If we treat “racist” as such a big bugaboo that as soon as the word’s said we cover our ears and sing LALALALALA, racism is gonna hang around forever. We gotta be able to talk about it, acknowledge it, and analyze it. We gotta stop acting like nobody we know is racist. > > The greatest trick the racists ever pulled, they say, was to convince the world they didn’t exist. > > Let’s not fall for it. Oh, please. A person’s insistence in using the term advertises that they do not want an actual discussion. They want the discussion to not be had. They want the weight on their side that the person they’re debating is morally flawed. The goal is to quench the point of view and such discussions. Otherwise, one can use “racial”, “race-based”, etc. This is no secret. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/469 "2015-10-19T00:30:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. A person’s insistence in using the term advertises that they do not want an actual discussion. It advertises no such thing, and merely claiming it does is a waste of time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/470 "2015-10-19T00:35:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, please. A person’s insistence in using the term advertises that they do not want an actual discussion. They want the discussion to not be had. They want the weight on their side that the person they’re debating is morally flawed. The goal is to quench the point of view and such discussions. Otherwise, one can use “racial”, “race-based”, etc. > > This is no secret. “Racial” and “race-based” are pointless terms in these conversations and add nothing. How does calling an assertion about black people “racial” add anything? What information does it provide? How is it any more accurate than “racist” (when one believes that an assertion is actually racist), or even than using no such descriptor at all? “Racial” is a nothing word. Means nothing and adds nothing to these conversations, it seems to me. I still don’t get it. Calling an assertion “racist”, on my account at least, is part of the conversation. It’s not an end, and it’s not supposed to be an end to the conversation. Some things actually are racist, and it’s reasonable to call them so and have a discussion on that. And on the off chance that something is called racist by mistake, then we can talk about that too. These are actual good conversations that can be had. Being called a “racist” or having something you said be called “racist” is not the end of the world. _ **I have said racist things in my life** _. I want these things identified so I can improve myself. I imagine many decent people can say this statement truthfully. It’s not the end of the world, and is part of being a better person, in my view. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/471 "2015-10-19T04:42:24Z")
“Racial” and “Race-based” are just terms favoured by non-anti-racists to obfuscate the issues and control the language anti-racists use. There’s no difference in usage between racist and racial in these conversations, despite **magellan** ’s ongoing insistence. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/472 "2015-10-19T04:44:53Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Oh, piffle. This is such a common, and silly, reaction, that academics have come up with a bit of jargon for it: [white fragility syndrome](http://www.alternet.org/culture/why-white-people-freak-out-when-theyre-called-out-about-race). Thanks for that - was unaware that someone had actually put a name to my pain. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/473 "2015-10-19T04:47:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > “Racial” and “race-based” are pointless terms in these conversations and add nothing. How does calling an assertion about black people “racial” add anything? What information does it provide? How is it any more accurate than “racist” (when one believes that an assertion is actually racist), or even than using no such descriptor at all? > > “Racial” is a nothing word. Means nothing and adds nothing to these conversations, it seems to me. I still don’t get it. > > Calling an assertion “racist”, on my account at least, is part of the conversation. It’s not an end, and it’s not supposed to be an end to the conversation. Some things actually are racist, and it’s reasonable to call them so and have a discussion on that. And on the off chance that something is called racist by mistake, then we can talk about that too. These are actual good conversations that can be had. Being called a “racist” or having something you said be called “racist” is not the end of the world. _ **I have said racist things in my life** _. I want these things identified so I can improve myself. I imagine many decent people can say this statement truthfully. It’s not the end of the world, and is part of being a better person, in my view. What a crock. Racial describes the statements being made perfectly well. You don’t like it because it doesn’t at the same time insult, and work to shut the other person up, make then position taboo and shut down the position then and in the future. Your eagerness/desparation to use “racist” as you’ve described proves that you’re not content with being able to refer to a statement concerning race that you don’t like as being racial…it’s not enough to just describe that it is race based. You insist on placing a value judgment on it that, at best, begs the question as to whether what is at issue is actually rac_ist_. That’s “at best”. But the truth of it is that you want to color as negatively as possible because you just don’t like the. This last post of yours has removed any doubt as to your motivation. It’s comical that some articulate posters simply insist that they be able to use the word. That it is necessary. That they cannot express themselves without it. [Here’s my advice to them.](http://www.thesaurus.com) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/474 "2015-10-19T04:51:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “Racial” and “Race-based” are just terms favoured by non-anti-racists to obfuscate the issues and control the language anti-racists use. There’s no difference in usage between racist and racial in these conversations, despite **magellan** ’s ongoing insistence. Complete and utter nonsense. Racist is first and foremost an insult. The other words aren’t. The word is toxic. A least be honest and admit that’s why you are so desperate to use it. That you and the other warriors want to shout down others and make discussing race issues that you don’t like taboo. You might as well admit it. It’s crystal clear and any verbal dancing to the contrary has long gotten old. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/475 "2015-10-19T05:17:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Complete and utter nonsense. Yeah, no, not at all. > [@](#): > > Racist is first and foremost an insult. No, it’s _first and foremost_ an accurate description. > [@](#): > > The other words aren’t. Nor are they as accurate. > [@](#): > > The word is toxic. Pffft. Being told I live on a continent of retards is what’s toxic. Being told you’re a racist should only be toxic if you’re, you know, not actually saying racist things. > [@](#): > > A least be honest and admit that’s why you are so desperate to use it. Nope. I don’t want to use the word to restrict debate. I want to use it to be able to debate _freely_ - to use what I determine are accurate and succinct descriptors, as my debate opponents are allowed to. > [@](#): > > That you and the other warriors want to shout down others and make discussing race issues that you don’t like taboo. While I do want scientific realism threads to be treated as the hate speech they are, that’s a separate issue from whether I should be able to describe racists acurately and succinctly. > [@](#): > > You might as well admit it. It’s crystal clear and any verbal dancing to the contrary has long gotten old. Is it as old as unsuccessfully attempting to substitute “racial” for “racist”? Talk about verbal dancing… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/476 "2015-10-19T05:25:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > [Here’s my advice to them.](http://www.thesaurus.com) _Synonyms for racist adj bigoted anti-Semitic, biased, intolerant,prejudiced, sectarian, xenophobic, partial, illiberal, narrow-minded, opinionated, small-minded_ Yeah, those will _really_ open up debate in a way racist never could :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/477 "2015-10-19T08:57:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What a crock. Racial describes the statements being made perfectly well. You don’t like it because it doesn’t at the same time insult, and work to shut the other person up, make then position taboo and shut down the position then and in the future. Your eagerness/desparation to use “racist” as you’ve described proves that you’re not content with being able to refer to a statement concerning race that you don’t like as being racial…it’s not enough to just describe that it is race based. Totally baffled. What’s the point of “racial”? What does it add? How is it useful? It’s a nothing word. At least answer my questions about it – what does the word convey? How is it better than using no word at all? > [@](#): > > You insist on placing a value judgment on it that, at best, begs the question as to whether what is at issue is actually rac_ist_. That’s “at best”. But the truth of it is that you want to color as negatively as possible because you just don’t like the. This last post of yours has removed any doubt as to your motivation. > > It’s comical that some articulate posters simply insist that they be able to use the word. That it is necessary. That they cannot express themselves without it. [Here’s my advice to them.](http://www.thesaurus.com) You’re wrong about me. I actually mean what I’m posting. I’m being honest here. I actually think it’s racist to say “black people are inherently inferior in intelligence”, and I actually don’t understand how “racial” conveys any useful information. I don’t get it at all, and I’m not being disingenuous. Just try to consider that this is a possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/478 "2015-10-19T10:32:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Complete and utter nonsense. Racist is first and foremost an insult. The other words aren’t. The word is toxic. A least be honest and admit that’s why you are so desperate to use it. That you and the other warriors want to shout down others and make discussing race issues that you don’t like taboo. You might as well admit it. It’s crystal clear and any verbal dancing to the contrary has long gotten old. See, if you didn’t spend so much time telling me that I’m dishonest and want to avoid conversation, your claims that you’re interested in honest debate might be more persuasive. **Might**. This is an excellent example of how foolish the board’s bright line is. Posts like yours, in which you accuse your opponents of a cornucopia of bad faith, are just fine. Posts in which views are accurately labeled in order to facilitate discussion are modded. The line should exist, but it should be drawn elsewhere. Your post above is a great example of what should be off-limits. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/479 "2015-10-19T10:44:40Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Complete and utter nonsense. Racist is first and foremost an insult. The other words aren’t. The word is toxic. A least be honest and admit that’s why you are so desperate to use it. That you and the other warriors want to shout down others and make discussing race issues that you don’t like taboo. You might as well admit it. It’s crystal clear and any verbal dancing to the contrary has long gotten old. > [@](#): > > **Nathaniel Hawthorne** > > Accuracy is the twin brother of honesty; inaccuracy, of dishonesty. … ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/480 "2015-10-19T11:04:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > … > > > [@](#): > > > > Accuracy is the twin brother of honesty; inaccuracy, of dishonesty. Couldn’t agree more. And referring to someone as a racist when they are not, is inaccurate. Calling a statement racist—ignoring the pejorative nature of the word, pretending it’s not there, is dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241/481 "2015-10-19T11:17:32Z")
I am thoroughly enjoying this conversation, as I do pretty much all the conversations I take part in (when a discussion stops being fun then I stop being a part of it). And I’m expressing my views and beliefs honestly. I’m also responding to you, **magellan01** , as though the things you post are the things you really believe. This conversation would be even more fun if you extended me the same courtesy, and actually assumed that I’m saying what I really believe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/racist-is-not-an-insult-when-a-person-is-a-racist/734241.md?page=25)