# Raiders of the Lost Ark Plot Holes Redux **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 29, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275 "2003-10-29T18:20:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/1 "2003-10-29T18:20:09Z")
OK, I got the new set of Indiana Jones movies on DVD over the weekend and finally had the chance to rewatch “Raiders of the Lost Ark” for the first time in a long while. Anyway, I really enjoyed the movie and thought it was a fantastic adventure story. However, there were a few gaping (to me) plot holes that I just thought I’d mention. First off, there’s the scene where the Ark and Marion are spirited away on the submarine, and Indy is seen climbing onto the Sub as it floats away. Assuming the base where they brought the sub wasn’t just around the corner, wouldn’t the sub have submerged at some point? How long can Indy hold his breath, anyway? Second, at the end of the movie the Nazis are all killed and the ropes binding Indy and Marion are magically severed, allowing them to escape. Fine. But how do they get off the island with the Ark? The Nazis involved in the ceremony are killed, but presumably the rest of the island is still crawling with them (there _is_ a sub base on the island, after all). Of course, seeing as how this movie was an homage to the old serials of the 30s and 40s, maybe they left these plot holes in on purpose, in a sort of tribute to the old “and with a mighty leap, Jack was free” type cliffhanger resolutions prevalent in those serials. Any thoughts? Other plot holes? Barry ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/2 "2003-10-29T18:26:26Z")
The scene with the sun and the gem and the model city always bothered me. You’re telling me Indy got there on the correct day and time? ---
**Author:** ![ArrMatey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrmatey/32/3522_2.png) [@ArrMatey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArrMatey)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/3 "2003-10-29T18:50:10Z")
The submarine isn’t too much of an issue- If they were going through non-hostile waters, they wouldn’t submerge much. Underwater movement at the time was -amazingly- slow, and cut off their communications. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/4 "2003-10-29T18:52:49Z")
Actually, The U Boat commander is shown saying “tauchen” or “dive.” I’ve always wondered why Spielberg included that. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/5 "2003-10-29T18:57:28Z")
As to the submarine…a sub from the period would be diesel/electric powered. Unlike a nuclear sub, where the electric power is effectively unlimited, a diesel/electric’s batteries could only power the sub for a relatively short period of time. When not actively hiding from surface ships, the sub would have run on diesel power, on the surface. I think it would also be able to run quite a bit faster in this mode. ---
**Author:** ![LateComer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b5ac83/32.png) [@LateComer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LateComer)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/6 "2003-10-29T18:57:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bruce\_Daddy \* > \*\*The scene with the sun and the gem and the model city always bothered me. You’re telling me Indy got there on the correct day and time? \*\* It’s been a while since I’ve seen the film, but, if I’m not mistaken there is some sort of calendar map on the floor. He had to stick the rod into the correct hole for the current day. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/7 "2003-10-29T18:57:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jimpatro \* > **Actually, The U Boat commander is shown saying “tauchen” or "dive."** Yes! Now that you mention it, this was what raised the question in my mind when I saw the scene. As an aside, just before the captain says this, a crew member comes down the ladder from the conning tower. Am I the only one who thinks he bore an uncanny resemblance to Harrison Ford? The first time I saw this scene I thought that Indy had somehow waylaid a sailor and stolen his uniform, except that they showed him still on top of the Sub after this character was shown. Barry ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/8 "2003-10-29T19:08:23Z")
To me they are not gaping plot holes … and consequently did not take much from my enjoyment of the movie… That said, the only spoiler that got me was when Indy landed in the snake room and a cobra reared up - at that second you could see it’s reflection in the glass infront of it, and when it strikes, you can see it hit the glass… this threw me a little. If you have a DVD player do slow-mo as he falls down and the cobra rears up…the reflection is evident. All that said…I damn near changed my major to Archaeology because of those awesome movies… ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/9 "2003-10-29T19:13:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > **To me they are not gaping plot holes … and consequently did not take much from my enjoyment of the movie… That said, the only spoiler that got me was when Indy landed in the snake room and a cobra reared up - at that second you could see it’s reflection in the glass infront of it, and when it strikes, you can see it hit the glass… this threw me a little. If you have a DVD player do slow-mo as he falls down and the cobra rears up…the reflection is evident.** Actually, I caught that in the theater when I first saw the movie years ago, believe it or not, although I don’t really consider it to be a “plot hole” – it’s just a special effect that wasn’t quite as special as they hoped. To be honest, I was hoping they would do a little CGI on the DVD release and fix this mistake, but alas it is still there… Barry ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/10 "2003-10-29T19:53:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > \*\*All that said…I damn near changed my major to Archaeology because of those awesome movies… \*\* I did go into archaeology because of these movies, at least in part. I did know before the fact that I wasn’t going to be finding any sites with arrows shooting out the walls or giant boulders rolling to block the exits. ---
**Author:** ![NailBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecae2f/32.png) [@NailBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NailBunny)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/11 "2003-10-29T19:56:05Z")
I feel so stupid: I never, ever noticed the reflection on the glass in all my many years of being raised on and loving this movie. Jesus, I even rented it not two weeks before the set came out, and didn’t spot a thing! I must have been focusing too dreamily on Indy’s face. 🙂 _The Temple of Doom_ plot holes bothered me much, much more this viewing than the last time I saw the movie, probably at least five or six years ago. I mean, Indy is a savvy badass, but he drinks some totally strange cocktail placed in front of him by the extreme baddie across the table without even considering it might be poisoned??? And why in hell would Lao Che have 1: created an antidote, and 2: brought it with him? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/12 "2003-10-29T20:02:18Z")
I would venture to guess that the u-boat submerged to periscope depth for as long as it would take to get away from the freighter (in case it had sent any distress signals), and then cruised on the surface until it got back to base. If Indy is clinging to the periscope he’d be fine as long as the seas were steady. As pointed out, German u-boats had a limited amount of underwater time because they ran on batteries (which were charged by the deisel motors during surface operations). So they only submerged to attack, to avoid detection in hostile waters, and during storms. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/13 "2003-10-29T20:04:11Z")
The sub was explained in the book, god wanted Indy there so when/if they did dive god parted the waters so Indy could breath. Plus I can also imagine that they didn’t go deep so if he tied himself to something he could just water ski behind. Second, why couldn’t they have taken a boat. There had to be more then just a sub there, I’m sure there were boats and/or a radio. Bruce\_Daddy, Indy had a notebook that he read and then figured out where to place the staff. I tried to do archaeology as well but could never get into school for it. It does help explain all my books on Megaliths though. ---
**Author:** ![Umbriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de053/32.png) [@Umbriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Umbriel)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/14 "2003-10-29T20:06:10Z")
A WWII vintage sub in peacetime might indeed have traveled mostly or exclusively on the surface. It might make sense, though, to dive at least until the freighter was out of sight, and the Captain does indeed yell “Dive” as the montage plays out with the red line running to the base. Legend has it that footage was shot of Indy clinging to the periscope of the U-boat while it ran submerged, but that it wasn’t included in the final cut (or the current DVD special edition for that matter, though it was supposed to have cleaned up the glare in the snake pit that **Phlosphr** mentioned). I’ve never heard any details about why Spielberg made that cut. I’d guess that it seemed too unbelievable and cartoonish, though that didn’t seem to bother him about the jumping mine car and parachuting raft in _Temple of Doom_, or the airplane chase in _Last Crusade_. I think _those_ scenes _were_ intentionally outlandish as an homage to the '30s serials. Regarding the Staff of Ra – **LateComer** is right about the separate sockets for various days. A bigger problem to my mind is how the Germans were able to replicate not just the instructions, but the crystal, from the impression on Todt’s hand. While the metal setting might have quickly gotten hot enough to burn flesh, it seems less likely that a piece of glass or rock crystal would. Even if it did, it seems unlikely that the Belloq and the Germans would expect to be able to duplicate the exact refractivity of the original just by approximating the facets on one side. Oh, well, it obviously didn’t work anyway. The only other real “plot hole” that comes to my mind is the “basket switching” when Marion is kidnapped. It doesn’t seem to me, given the way the scenes played out, that Indy ever even saw a basket put into the truck that blew up. Given that they seemed to plan on killing Indy during the snatch, it’s not clear who they would have intended to fool anyway. Here are a few technical nitpicking points: The submachineguns used by the Germans were MP-38s or MP-40s. Neither was in use by 1936, the alleged date of the movie.A WWII vintage sub in peacetime might indeed have traveled mostly or exclusively on the surface. It might make sense, though, to dive at least until the freighter was out of sight, and the Captain does indeed yell “Dive” as the montage plays out with the red line running to the base. Legend has it that footage was shot of Indy clinging to the periscope of the U-boat while it ran submerged, but that it wasn’t included in the final cut (or the current DVD special edition for that matter, though it does clean up the glare in the snake pit that **Phlosphr** mentioned). I’ve never heard any details about why Spielberg made that cut. I’d guess that it seemed too unbelievable and cartoonish, though that didn’t seem to bother him about the jumping mine car and parachuting raft in _Temple of Doom_, or the airplane chase in _Last Crusade_. I think _those_ scenes _were_ intentionally outlandish as an homage to the '30s serials. Regarding the Staff of Ra – **LateComer** is right about the separate sockets for various days. A bigger problem to my mind is how the Germans were able to replicate not just the instructions, but the crystal, from the impression on Todt’s hand. While the metal setting might have quickly gotten hot enough to burn flesh, it seems less likely that a piece of glass or rock crystal would. Even if it did, it seems unlikely that the Belloq and the Germans would expect to be able to duplicate the exact refractivity of the original just by approximating the facets on one side. Oh, well, it obviously didn’t work anyway. The only other real “plot hole” that comes to my mind is the “basket switching” when Marion is kidnapped. It doesn’t seem to me, given the way the scenes played out, that Indy ever even saw a basket put into the truck that blew up. Given that they seemed to plan on killing Indy during the snatch, it’s not clear who they would have intended to fool anyway. Here are a few technical nitpicking points: The submachineguns used by the Germans were MP-38s or MP-40s. Neither was in use by 1936, the alleged date of the movie. Any SMGs in German service should have been MP-35s, recognizable by non-weapons geeks as the gun that falls apart when a Grail guardian fires it in _Last Crusade_ It seems unlikely that Egypt, controlled by the British through a puppet king, and enormously strategically important to the British due to the Suez canal, would have welcomed a company or so of heavily armed German troops in 1936. Germany had no Aegean islands in its possession in 1936, and was probably not on good enough diplomatic terms with either Greece or Italy at the time to build a secret U-boat base on their territory. That spiked gate in the ancient pseudo-Mayan tomb was triggered by, what, ancient pseudo-Mayan photoelectric cells? It seems unlikely that Egypt, controlled by the British through a puppet king, and enormously strategically important to the British due to the Suez canal, would have welcomed a company or so of heavily armed German troops in 1936. Germany had no Aegean islands in its possession in 1936, and was probably not on good enough diplomatic terms with either Greece or Italy at the time to build a secret U-boat base on their territory. That spiked gate in the ancient pseudo-Mayan tomb was triggered by, what, ancient pseudo-Mayan photoelectric cells? ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/15 "2003-10-29T20:12:23Z")
The thing about the sub running on the surface is that there would be crew topside in the tower. the rest of the deck of a sub offers very few hiding places. ---
**Author:** ![Umbriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de053/32.png) [@Umbriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Umbriel)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/16 "2003-10-29T20:17:27Z")
And please forgive the double post of my technical nitpicking points. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/17 "2003-10-29T20:17:51Z")
BING BING BING The ‘sub’ thing… In the Marvel Comics adaptation way back when Indy was shown **tying himself to the periscope** with his whip during the dive periods. Marvel claimed (at the time) that they’d presented it based upon the full original script and didn’t have time to take it out when Spielberg removed the shot from the final print. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/18 "2003-10-29T20:18:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I would venture to guess that the u-boat submerged to periscope depth for as long as it would take to get away from the freighter (in case it had sent any distress signals), and then cruised on the surface until it got back to base. If Indy is clinging to the periscope he’d be fine as long as the seas were steady. Actually, I recall reading that in the original script, there was a scene where the u-boat _does_ submerge and there are the requisite several tense moments where Indy tries to avoid being washed off before he ties himself to the periscope with his whip. BTW, this scene with the periscope is in the comic book version of **Raiders** put out by Marvel. My guess on why this scene didn’t make it into the final cut was for reasons having to do with time and pacing. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/19 "2003-10-29T20:22:02Z")
HAH! Gotcha Ya! ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275/20 "2003-10-29T20:23:02Z")
There was some good dialog about this when I asked about the sub not submerging in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2004968#post2004968) old thread. These were some good points from **HPL** that never got answered: • If they ran on the surface the whole way and therefore weren’t going for stealth, why use a U-boat at all? Those things aren’t exactly built for cargo transporting, and they’d probably have to run on a skeleton crew just to fit all those troops aboard (somehow I doubt they issue MP-38/MP-40’s to sailors on a sub). • I would think that if they weren’t gonna submerge, they have a least one lookout on the deck at all times. _Das Boot_ shows four at any given time. • How did the Germans manage to build that U-boat pen in the Agean by 1936 without anyone knowing? I would think the Royal Navy would be quite interested in something like that. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raiders-of-the-lost-ark-plot-holes-redux/210275.md?page=2)