# Railroad fuel cars explode in small Quebec town **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 7, 2013, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851 "2013-07-07T03:51:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/61 "2013-07-24T22:15:09Z")
[Article in the Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/railway-company-has-stopped-paying-for-disaster-cleanup-lac-megantic-mayor-says/article13370835/) from yesterday. Words fail to adequately express my anger. First, Canadian authorities should confiscate everything the railroad owns as a lien. Then we should pursue traditional Naval discipline - I think Ed Burkhardt ought to kiss the gunner’s daughter and take 20 of the best. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/62 "2013-07-25T01:00:13Z")
I’ve assumed since Day 1 that MMA will go under as a result of this disaster it’s caused. About 60 people dead, many of them young, some with small children: that’s a huge claim for loss of future earnings, loss of parental relationships. Plus, a town centre blown up/burnt down: physical damages to all those property owners, plus the knock-on effect for all the businesses who are losing business and profits. Plus punitive damages. MMA sounds like a pretty small operation, as railways go. I doubt they have the resources and insurance to cover all that. This cease work is probably just the first sign of a serious cash flow problem. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/63 "2013-07-27T13:34:21Z")
> [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](#): > > [URL=“[Railway company has stopped paying for Lac-Mégantic disaster cleanup: mayor - The Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/railway-company-has-stopped-paying-for-disaster-cleanup-lac-megantic-mayor-says/article13370835/)”]Words fail to adequately express my anger. First, Canadian authorities should confiscate everything the railroad owns as a lien. While I understand the outrage, that’s not consistent with the rule of law. Canadian governments do not, and should not, have the power to seize private property without following due process, as set out by statutes and enforced through the courts. Countries where the government can just seize private property tend to be pretty low on the ranks for respecting other basic rights as well. [Quote=Le Ministre de l’au-delà] Then we should pursue traditional Naval discipline - I think Ed Burkhardt ought to kiss the gunner’s daughter and take 20 of the best. [/QUOTE] Again, rule of law and this time, presumption of innocence. Unless and until Mr Burkhardt has been charged, tried and convicted in a court of law, the government has no power to punish him, and even them, only according to the sentence of the court. Canadians rejected corporal punishment many years ago, when it was taken out of the Criminal Code as a possible punishment. Even if Mr Burkhardt is convicted of an offence, flogging cannot be a punishment because that would be unconstitutional: the punishment for an offence cannot be made more severe after the offence was committed. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/64 "2013-07-27T13:58:23Z")
I think that a freeze/preservation/non-dissapation order should be made. As far as naval tradition goes, we do have a precedent for summary execution of land pirates, but it is a wee bit outdated. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/65 "2013-07-27T14:05:53Z")
No problem with that sort of non-dissipation order, so long as it’s based on existing law and done through the courts. I’m not sure whether a Canadian government would have standing to apply for one, though, since they’re usually ancillary to a law suit. I doubt, though, that MMA has much by way of assets in Canada. As a Chicago based company, I would expect most of its assets would be in Illinois. And, I would expect that creditors (like the bank who extended their operating line of credit) likely have a security interest in their rolling stock, which would take priority over litigation claims. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/66 "2013-07-27T14:44:56Z")
That’s why I’m a proponent of tough environmental and safety regulations including cleanup bonding. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/67 "2013-07-27T14:57:40Z")
MM&A to tighten train safety rules, but chairman doubts need for new laws > **[MM&A to tighten train safety rules, but chairman doubts need for new laws](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/mma-to-tighten-rules-but-chairman-doubts-need-for-new-laws/article13337891/)** > > The Transportation Safety Board called on the federal government last week to tighten its rules on unsupervised trains after a runaway Montreal, Maine & Atlantic train jumped the tracks in downtown Lac-Mégantic, setting off explosions and fire... Premiers discuss disaster mitigation in wake of Alberta floods and Lac-Mégantic > **[Premiers discuss disaster mitigation in wake of Alberta floods and Lac-Mégantic](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/premiers-discuss-disaster-mitigation/article13470357/)** > > Public safety was on the agenda in the wake of the Alberta flooding last month, as well as the derailment in Lac-Mégantic ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/68 "2013-07-27T15:26:47Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > That’s why I’m a proponent of tough environmental and safety regulations including cleanup bonding. No objection to that, either, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/69 "2013-07-27T15:30:06Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > MM&A to tighten train safety rules, but chairman doubts need for new laws > > [MM&A to tighten train safety rules, but chairman doubts need for new laws - The Globe and Mail](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/mma-to-tighten-rules-but-chairman-doubts-need-for-new-laws/article13337891/) That’s what people who put the bottom line ahead of people’s lives always say. He has no credibility and should just shut up until his disreputable company has paid all of its obligations to the families of the people his company killed. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/70 "2013-07-27T16:00:00Z")
Please understand - I’m expressing my anger over the situation, I’m not expressing what I think is necessarily practical or legal. It’s just that ‘removing his clothes with a blow-torch’ comes much closer to expressing my feelings that ‘prosecution to the fullest extent of the law’. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/71 "2013-07-27T16:01:53Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I doubt, though, that MMA has much by way of assets in Canada. As a Chicago based company, I would expect most of its assets would be in Illinois. And, I would expect that creditors (like the bank who extended their operating line of credit) likely have a security interest in their rolling stock, which would take priority over litigation claims. What about the land that the rails are on? That must be worth a fair bit… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/72 "2013-07-27T16:19:42Z")
Doubt that MMA owns them; more likely CP or CN. Under federal regulation, the rail companies have to let any other rail companies use their rails, for a fee. It’s one of the functions of the Canada Transport Board: to set the tariffs for that sort of thing. So, I would think MMA was just using the rails of one of the big rail companies, to run their own MMA trains. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/73 "2013-07-27T16:51:07Z")
spotted this while hunting for details on changes to rail safety, by the Canada Transport Board, due to this event caused by an unattended train on the main line. about track ownership. Journey to the end of the MM&A Railway line > **[Journey to the end of the MM&A Railway line](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/journey-to-the-end-of-the-line/article13467471/)** > > The July 6 disaster in Quebec raised hard questions about infrastructure, regulation and the future of rail transport, especially for growing volumes of oil. Les Perreaux followed the tracks to see their conditions and meet the people who live... ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/74 "2013-07-27T22:52:23Z")
I sit corrected - MMA does own the rail line , according to the G&M article. That is a potential asset that plaintiffs could seek to attach, but alway subject to claims by secured creditors, like banks who gave MMA the credit to buy the rail line. ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/75 "2013-07-27T23:51:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Doubt that MMA owns them; more likely CP or CN. Under federal regulation, the rail companies have to let any other rail companies use their rails, for a fee… > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I sit corrected - MMA does own the rail line , according to the G&M article. That is a potential asset that plaintiffs could seek to attach, but alway subject to claims by secured creditors, like banks who gave MMA the credit to buy the rail line. In the majority of cases, though, you’d be correct. CN and CP own most of the trackage in Canada, and lease running rights to other lines (VIA, GO Transit, and others) as need be. I like the idea of a bond, but I’m unsure (after this accident) if any reputable surety would be willing to write one. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/76 "2013-08-08T04:04:57Z")
heard on radio MM&A Railway has filed for bankruptcy in the USA and Canada. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/77 "2013-08-14T04:07:55Z")
Railway in Quebec train tragedy loses license [http://news.yahoo.com/railway-quebec-train-tragedy-loses-license-185504817.html](http://news.yahoo.com/railway-quebec-train-tragedy-loses-license-185504817.html) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/78 "2013-08-14T14:28:42Z")
I’m not surprised. As I speculated above, they don’t have sufficient resources to meet third party claims: [Lac-Mégantic disaster railway can no longer operate in Canada](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2013/08/13/quebec-lac-megantic-disaster-mma-railway-licence-pulled-certificate-fitness-bankrupt.html) > [@](#): > > The order, issued today, comes after the [Canadian Transportation Agency] reviewed the company and found Montreal, Maine & Atlantic Railway doesn’t have enough third-party liability insurance, or the funds to pay for the self-insured portion, both of which are requirements to operate Canada. > … > Rail companies of similar size to MM&A in North America usually have between $5 million to $50 million in coverage. > > The agency said no railways covered under federal regulations have exceeded the cap on third party liability policies in the past 10 years, but the huge losses in Lac-Mégantic have raised questions around how able those policies are to fully cover the impact of a catastrophic event. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/79 "2013-08-14T14:30:59Z")
And in other news: [Study shows high pollution at Lac-Mégantic: one carcinogen 394,444 times above limit](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/study-shows-high-pollution-at-lac-megantic-one-carcinogen-394444-times-above-limit/article13749318/) > [@](#): > > Tests conducted by an environmental group suggest last month’s Lac-Mégantic, Que., train disaster had a devastating impact on water quality and soil in the affected area. > > Extremely high concentrations of carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and arsenic, detected in surface water, have “confirmed the fears” of the Société pour vaincre la pollution, the group said. > > The analysis, which was obtained by The Canadian Press, suggests the rate of carcinogenic polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons is 394,444 times the standard acceptable for surface waters mandated by the provincial government. > > As well, the concentration of arsenic detected on the water’s surface is said to exceed the government’s acceptable standard by 28 times. There was also “an extremely high level of petroleum hydrocarbons following the explosive derailment and oil spill,” the environmental group said. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851/80 "2013-08-14T16:19:18Z")
Not surprised by arsenic but I would have thought the volatile chemicals would have burn off in the intense heat. Just out of curiosity, why don’t trains have their own version of wheel chocks? We stop 900,000 lb planes with them. Of course, they’d have to make provisions for sections of tracks that are greased. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/railroad-fuel-cars-explode-in-small-quebec-town/662851.md?page=5)