# Raindogs comments.. \[on belief and proof - edited title\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048 "2011-12-04T19:23:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/21 "2011-12-04T21:08:19Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Because Leprechauns, demons, and fairies aren’t posited as the creator of the universe. In that sense it all comes down to the most profound question ever: > > _Why is there something, rather than nothing?_ > > Now, sure, this begs the question, as does postulating the existence of a God to bring it forth. But here we are asking it, and to be completely honest with ourselves… we don’t know. > > ::shrug:: +1 ---
**Author:** ![DaveBfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DaveBfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveBfd)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/22 "2011-12-04T21:09:41Z")
Can you define witnessing, Raindog? Im reading it as an assumption that God did something. Specifically God and nothing else. Can you phrase it so I understand how witnessing applies to “I dont know?” For example “I dont know how he got cured from cancer.” - God did it, or “I dont know” you say both are witnessing to the opposite views (might have simplified the issue too much again). I use this example because it is the basis of atheism. I dont know translates to God for some, and it remains as “I dont know” for others. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/23 "2011-12-04T21:11:13Z")
**DaveBfd** I have to run. Will respond to you later, k? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/24 "2011-12-04T21:14:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does Santa Claus exist? > Does the Loch Ness Monster exist? > Were the moon landings faked? > Is Superman only a fictional character? See my post #12. The posited existence of anything, for a matter of scientific consideration, must tie in physically/cosmologically. The question of God (while I feel is largely philosophical, anyhow), still resides in the inky depths of the cosmological unknown. The question of “where did everything come from”, at this point remains a cosmological and philosophical conundrum; probably for eons, if not all time. ---
**Author:** ![DaveBfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DaveBfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveBfd)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/25 "2011-12-04T21:20:42Z")
But at the point God is restricted to not impacting our earth he does not matter any longer, correct? It no longer becomes a fundamental question of our being. Also, all religions become wrong, and the matter of atheism/theism do not matter. Maybe Im misreading you. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/26 "2011-12-04T21:22:25Z")
Sure, I can venture this… I define witnessing as sharing one’s \*subjective beliefs \*and/or inferences with others, in venues of all sorts, through either positive proclamations or through negative refutations of contrasting/opposing views. For example, **Czarcasm** ’s constant sarcasm about the Easter Bunny (et al) is a form of negative witnessing. By laying siege to a set of beliefs he finds silly he’s implicitly advancing his own. (which become quite evident) And, really, I have no issue with his (or your) atheism. My interest comes in when I see people (like **Czarcasm** ) represent their _subjective beliefs_ (even if they’re rooted in objective fact) as _objective 'truths._’ I’ve pondered this, and it seems to me to be the greatest of all faiths----the kind of moral certainty that cannot distinguish subjective opinion from objective fact; or disingenuous juvenile behavior. Whatever the answer, it’s subjective. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/27 "2011-12-04T21:24:11Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Sure, I can venture this… > > I define witnessing as sharing one’s \*subjective beliefs \*and/or inferences with others, in venues of all sorts, through either positive proclamations or through negative refutations of contrasting/opposing views. > > For example, **Czarcasm** ’s constant sarcasm about the Easter Bunny (et al) is a form of negative witnessing. By laying siege to a set of beliefs he finds silly he’s implicitly advancing his own. (which become quite evident) > > And, really, I have no issue with his (or your) atheism. My interest comes in when I see people (like **Czarcasm** ) represent their _subjective beliefs_ (even if they’re rooted in objective fact) as _objective 'truths._’ > > I’ve pondered this, and it seems to me to be the greatest of all faiths----the kind of moral certainty that cannot distinguish between subjective opinion from objective fact; or disingenuous juvenile behavior. > > Whatever the answer, it’s subjective. 😉 And my Uncle Dave’s hair color is bald. ---
**Author:** ![DaveBfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DaveBfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveBfd)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/28 "2011-12-04T21:25:50Z")
But when something has no evidence supporting it, isnt it largely irrelevant whether it is subjective or objective? Sure it is subjective that you assume it doesnt exist ANYWHERE at ANY TIME, but it is also objectively based on evidence. For all intents and purposes it does not exist. Specifically, it does not exist in the times there is no evidence for its existence. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/29 "2011-12-04T21:27:01Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Does Santa Claus exist? > Does the Loch Ness Monster exist? > Were the moon landings faked? > Is Superman only a fictional character? > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But if you disbeleive in all those things, why do you bleeive in God? God is a _less plausible_ thing than Santa Claus, Superman, or the Loch Ness Moster. We know magic rides against the laws of physics, so Santa can be dismissed. We know Superman is a fictional character created by DC Comics/Jerry Siegal in the '30s. We also know his “account” defies physics. The Loch Ness Monster, while _highly_ unlikey is more probable than God. I’d put this up there with Alien/UFO visitations. But then there’s Capital-G God. This guy – he’s in a category all his own. And sure, the accounts in scriptures, mythologies, all that, are ridiculous. But _can_ the universe come forth on its own? Perhaps an intellect of some sort needed to come forth on its own first? Who knows? And I know, I know… Occam’s razor and all that. But still… We just don’t know, and that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/30 "2011-12-04T21:30:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And my Uncle Dave’s hair color is bald. Surely this isn’t your best effort. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/31 "2011-12-04T21:31:02Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > But then there’s Capital-G God. This guy – he’s in a category all his own. A special category created for, and containing only, God. You could create the same kind of category for any illogical myth and, with enough hubris and time, make it stick. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/32 "2011-12-04T21:31:34Z")
> [@DaveBfd](#): > > But at the point God is restricted to not impacting our earth he does not matter any longer, correct? It no longer becomes a fundamental question of our being. Also, all religions become wrong, and the matter of atheism/theism do not matter. > > Maybe Im misreading you. I’m not talking about religion, are you? I’m talking about some _thing_ that brought forth everything else. That’s all. It’s really more a philosophical question (with no real answer), than a religious one. And I’d argue that theology is nothing more than fancy window dressing taking a rhetorical philosophical question, such as “Does God exist?” as a “Yes!” then the rest is just theatrics and dogma. ---
**Author:** ![DaveBfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DaveBfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveBfd)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/33 "2011-12-04T21:34:17Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I’m not talking about religion, are you? > > I’m talking about some _thing_ that brought forth everything else. That’s all. It’s really more a philosophical question (with no real answer), than a religious one. And I’d argue that theology is nothing more than fancy window dressing taking a rhetorical philosophical question, such as “Does God exist?” as a “Yes!” then the rest is just theatrics and dogma. This topic was brought up because of a religious post, so I am fine talking about either. I agree philosophically about the possibility of God, but for practical reasons I am an atheist. I am absolutely agnostic about any God that we cant experience. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/34 "2011-12-04T21:34:18Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > But then there’s Capital-G God. This guy – he’s in a category all his own. No, he isn’t - except for being _even more_ implausible than other gods, because of the extreme claims made about him. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/35 "2011-12-04T21:36:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > A special category created for, and containing only, God. You could create the same kind of category for any illogical myth and, with enough hubris and time, make it stick. The category for God isn’t complete without one that happens to be based in cosmology. Again: _Why is there something instead of nothing?_ Does it mean “nothingness” is impossible? Unstable? Or “something” always was, is regressively infinite? We know some of this “something” can think, create a “mind” and post questions on the internet. Could a mind have existed before, and created a “something”? What is this “something” anyway? It’s chicken and the egg. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/36 "2011-12-04T21:37:29Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > Surely this isn’t your best effort. It’s all the effort worth taking with someone who cannot tell the difference between making a decision based on all available evidence, and a decision based blind faith. If you insist on calling a decision to make a judgement call on a mythology that defies scientific principles and for which there is no evidence a “belief system”, then there really isn’t much I can say, is there? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/37 "2011-12-04T21:38:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, he isn’t - except for being _even more_ implausible than other gods, because of the extreme claims made about him. And you totally get to say that, because you’re an atheist. Cool, man. I’m saying, “I dunno.” Claims are one thing, I’m boiling it down to its essence, which none of you have addressed yet. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/38 "2011-12-04T21:40:18Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > The category for God isn’t complete without one that happens to be based in cosmology. Again: > > _Why is there something instead of nothing?_ > > Does it mean “nothingness” is impossible? Unstable? Or “something” always was, is regressively infinite? We know some of this “something” can think, create a “mind” and post questions on the internet. Could a mind have existed before, and created a “something”? What is this “something” anyway? It’s chicken and the egg. “I don’t know” means that an answer may be forthcoming somewhere in the future, whereas “God” pretends to be at least a partial answer to the question. I think I’ll just stick with “I don’t know” for now-it seems more honest an answer to me. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/39 "2011-12-04T21:40:58Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > We know magic rides against the laws of physics, so Santa can be dismissed. Jesus is magic. So the particular claims of Christianity can be dismissed as well. > [@](#): > > We know Superman is a fictional character created by DC Comics/Jerry Siegal in the '30s. We also know his “account” defies physics. We know Yahweh is a fictional character created by bronze-age primitives. > [@](#): > > The Loch Ness Monster, while _highly_ unlikey is more probable than God. I’d put this up there with Alien/UFO visitations. I’d put Alien visitations at higher than the Loch Ness Monster, personally. Given the size and food supply for the Loch, the monster’s existence approaches magic. > [@](#): > > But then there’s Capital-G God. This guy – he’s in a category all his own. And sure, the accounts in scriptures, mythologies, all that, are ridiculous. But _can_ the universe come forth on its own? Perhaps an intellect of some sort needed to come forth on its own first? Who knows? Nobody. But assuming an intellect is required only pushes back the problem to the creation of the intellect. > [@](#): > > And I know, I know… Occam’s razor and all that. But still… We just don’t know, and that’s OK. I agree we don’t know. But you don’t know you’re not about to have an aneurysm. Yet everyone lives like they aren’t because the chance is so remote it’s not worth dignifying. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048/40 "2011-12-04T21:41:58Z")
Right, and as I’ve said, “I don’t know.” Hence, agnostic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raindogs-comments-on-belief-and-proof-edited-title/605048.md?page=3)