# Raise the Gas Tax. A Lot. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335 "2015-01-30T16:01:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/21 "2015-01-30T18:15:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Retirees got us where we are. Fuck 'em. As much as I’d like to agree, the column addressed this by suggesting adding the money back to retirees SS checks. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/22 "2015-01-30T18:16:10Z")
I would have no problem supporting a bill that called for a gradual increase in state and federal gas taxes. Let’s say, 2 cents per year over 10 years, or 10 cents upfront with a 2 cents per year increase for 10 years, but not a $1 increase. I would also insist that the tax money be use for roads and infrastructure improvement ONLY. No loaning of these funds to other government agencies. No borrowing of these funds to help balance another agencies shortfall. With gas prices as low as they are, this is the best time to get something like this passed into law. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/23 "2015-01-30T18:19:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why is **that** important?! Because this is the only way that Conservatives will vote for it. Although, as other posters point out many Conservatives would be wary of it simply because they would rightly fear that the increase to the gas tax would actually happen but the offsetting decrease to payroll taxes might not actually happen. That’s been the trend in the past with compromise deals such as this. That’s why this will probably never happen, even thought it’s a great idea. That and the oil lobby. The political elements of this are interesting, and worthy of discussion. But I’m surprised there are so many who don’t see this as a good idea on it’s face. Environmentalists should be all for it. Fiscal conservatives should be all for it. That’s a rare thing, and what makes it such a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/24 "2015-01-30T18:26:48Z")
> [@DinoR](#): > > It would be regressive. > > Gas demand tends to be relatively inelastic in the short run; in the longer run, people do consider gas cost when replacing cars so demand becomes more elastic. Yes, which is why you do this now. You’d merely be putting the price of gas back to where it was a year ago. It wouldn’t be a hardship in the short term. Sure, prices will rise eventually, but that gives people time to plan and buy more fuel efficient vehicles in the long term. Plus, I’m not seeing how this will be regressive. Everyone who works would be getting money back under this proposal. Rich people who use more gas for their boat and their Land Rover will get hit harder by this tax and are only getting back the same $12 a week that the poor are getting. How’s that regressive? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/25 "2015-01-30T18:27:28Z")
As a self-employed business owner that racks up a lot of business miles which are already deductible, I strongly oppose this. Just more money out of my pocket. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/26 "2015-01-30T18:28:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m surprised there are so many who don’t see this as a good idea on it’s face. I think Johnny was the only one who was out-and-out against it. I pointed out some reasons why people might not like it but I am wholly in favor as long as the increase is gradual. It’s not as regressive as most consumption taxes, but it’s still regressive. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/27 "2015-01-30T18:35:37Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I would have no problem supporting a bill that called for a gradual increase in state and federal gas taxes. Let’s say, 2 cents per year over 10 years, or 10 cents upfront with a 2 cents per year increase for 10 years, but not a $1 increase. If you want to talk about increasing state gas taxes let’s pair that up with ripping down all of the damn tolls. I have no idea why we still use tolls. Why should a Hummer pay the same $2.00 to cross the bridge that a Prius does? Why does someone with a 60 mile commute often pay no tolls when someone with a 2 mile commute might? A gas tax is infinitely more fair in every way. It’s also completely inefficient. You have to hire workers to run the tolls, bureaucracy to oversee them. These people are often [corrupt](http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/04/i-team-toll-collectors-caught-shortchanging-drivers-thousands-on-mass-pike/). Plus there’s the privacy issue. Why does the government need to know exactly who drives on a given road in a given day? Just take the money at the gas pump and be done with it. Now I’m hijacking my own thread. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/28 "2015-01-30T18:42:17Z")
The gas tax should be a fixed amount per gallon, not proportional to pump price, and it should be pegged to (1) the average fuel mileage of (2) the average number of cars on the roads in the state or region. The idea is to make revenue for road maintenance and safety independent of fuel cost - a straight fee (or tax, if you prefer) for average per-mile use of the road infrastructure. We can’t reasonably adjust it for individual mileage, but those who choose cars with mileage higher than the established average will win out (as will we all) and those who drive vehicles that use more gas are paying proportionately for added pollution and wear-and-tear on the roads. (Those with 2300-pound cars that get 8 mpg, like some people I will not name, are just SOL). It should be pegged to actual population regions - e.g., Southern California might have one rate while Northern California has another. (Hard to say which might be higher). New England and other places where state lines are a convenient drive away might be best grouped to prevent a state with low rates from siphoning revenue from a higher-rate one. This revenue must be completely protected for road and traffic infrastructure use, with very judicious and selective support for public transit costs. It’s entirely possible to tweak this to give low-income individuals a break, possibly even at the pump/purchase level. Nothing else makes sense to me. Rates pegged to the fluctuating value of gas, rates combined with sales and excise and supplementary taxes “because we can,” and “road tax funds” that are endlessly raided to balance other budgets are absurd nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/29 "2015-01-30T18:44:37Z")
You can’t tax different states at different rates at the federal level without changing the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/30 "2015-01-30T18:48:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You can’t tax different states at different rates at the federal level without changing the Constitution. So what? Make all gas/road taxes state-level, and make state obligations to federal road structure a separate matter - which could be pegged again to the number of vehicles and an average road fuel economy. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/31 "2015-01-30T18:52:57Z")
I favor a higher gasoline tax, along with reduced subsidies for oil companies. In fact, a general carbon tax would be a great step towards ensuring our prosperity (and possibly even our survival) for the 21st century and into the 22nd. The way I’ve always heard it proposed is revenue neutral. Money collected is redistributed back evenly to the citizenry. Those who use consume less carbon than average are net winners, and those who consume more pay for it. It’s the market-driven solution to global warming. [Planet Money](http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/07/12/201502003/episode-472-the-one-page-plan-to-fix-global-warming) had an episode discussing it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/32 "2015-01-30T18:53:38Z")
> [@](#): > > So what? Make all gas/road taxes state-level… Good lucking getting all 48 contiguous state legislatures to do that rather than some of them siphoning gas tax revenues from others. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/33 "2015-01-30T18:54:12Z")
So how does this actually work? How do they take 12 (or any fixed ) from someone’s paycheck? I thought payroll taxes were a percentage of your gross pay? So someone that is earning low income, would see a smaller fixed dollar amount difference on thier paycheck than someone earning a high-income, but would end up paying the same $12 as the higher income guy in gas tax. This scheme seems like it hurts the poor and helps the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/34 "2015-01-30T18:55:35Z")
They are a percentage of gross income, capped at earnings over ~$114K. So yes, Krauthammer’s method of refunding the gas revenue would be very regressive. I assume that’s the catch that LHOD was looking for. Obviously that’s not going to happen, but the gas tax part of the plan seems sound. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/35 "2015-01-30T19:11:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They are a percentage of gross income, capped at earnings over ~$114K. So yes, Krauthammer’s method of refunding the gas revenue would be very regressive. I’m not following how this makes it regressive. He’s not suggesting a percentage change in the payroll tax. He’s saying a fixed amount per person. Since only people making less than $114K are going to have payroll taxes on all of their income, giving back $14 to everyone is in fact slightly progressive. A person making $50K will get back twice as much as a percentage as someone making $100K. They will get back way more as a percentage as someone making $200K. How’s that regressive? I grant you that a consumption tax, such as a gas tax is regressive by definition (slightly) but by giving the revenue back via payroll taxes and SS payments you are more than making up for that. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/36 "2015-01-30T19:16:45Z")
It’s regressive because the $113K-plus guy is getting back the same amount as the lower-bracket guy even though he didn’t pay as much - as a percentage in the first place. But you’re right that it’s progressive up to the level of the cap. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/37 "2015-01-30T19:53:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > As a self-employed business owner that racks up a lot of business miles which are already deductible, I strongly oppose this. Just more money out of my pocket. Just jack your prices up. Or cut profits, which are probably too high anyway. Treat it like a minimum wage increase. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/38 "2015-01-30T20:52:26Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Treat it like a minimum wage increase. I don’t exploit the labor of the proletariat, so I wouldn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/39 "2015-01-30T22:08:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t exploit the labor of the proletariat, so I wouldn’t know. Thank you for not subsidizing your labor costs with taxpayer money. I salute you sir. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/40 "2015-01-30T22:45:53Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If you want to talk about increasing state gas taxes let’s pair that up with ripping down all of the damn tolls. > > I have no idea why we still use tolls. Why should a Hummer pay the same $2.00 to cross the bridge that a Prius does? Why does someone with a 60 mile commute often pay no tolls when someone with a 2 mile commute might? A gas tax is infinitely more fair in every way. > > It’s also completely inefficient. You have to hire workers to run the tolls, bureaucracy to oversee them. These people are often [corrupt](http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/04/i-team-toll-collectors-caught-shortchanging-drivers-thousands-on-mass-pike/). > > Plus there’s the privacy issue. Why does the government need to know exactly who drives on a given road in a given day? Just take the money at the gas pump and be done with it. > > Now I’m hijacking my own thread. Tolls for things like bridges are due to the fact that bridges are extremely expensive to build and maintain and generally have more limited capacity than surrounding roads, so we want to discourage their use more than we do for normal driving. The two mile commute may be more expensive in terms of infrastructure than the sixty mile one. And the prius and hummer probably cause roughly similar amounts of wear to bridges, and cause almost equal amounts of congestion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335.md?page=3)