# Raise the Gas Tax. A Lot. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335 "2015-01-30T16:01:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/41 "2015-01-31T01:14:12Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Except that the people an increased gas tax would harm most, are the ones who can’t just decide to go out and spend $25,000 to $35,000 for a more efficient vehicle. They’re the ones who already don’t buy lattes every day, which they can cut out to make up for the higher cost of going to and from work. Assuming they buy the average amount of gas, the tax will cost them $50 per month. Fifty dollars a month might not be a great amount of money to you or me, but for many people it might be a week’s worth of groceries. Since lower-income workers often need to travel greater distances to their jobs (for example, how many maids live in Beverly Hills?), the burden on them might be greater than average. If the choice is to be able to go to work, or to feed your kids, then there might be more people signing up for public assistance – which would not be revenue-neutral. Which is why the time to do it is when gas prices are way down. In the long run it helps even them. More fuel efficient cars, even if they can’t afford it, reduces gas usage throughout the state and thus is a moderator on prices. I’ve posted links to tables showing that California gas consumption has held fairly constant for a number of years, on an absolute not per capita basis. I’ve seen other data showing that the average driver pays in the $300 range a year in extra maintenance due to bad roads. That is a regressive tax also. The mileage charge reduces the impact on those who have to use gas also. But $1 is way too high. Something quite a bit less can help infrastructure a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/42 "2015-01-31T01:19:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > As a self-employed business owner that racks up a lot of business miles which are already deductible, I strongly oppose this. Just more money out of my pocket. So, what are you doing with all the money that got put in your pocket due to the gas price collapse? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/43 "2015-01-31T01:24:17Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s also completely inefficient. You have to hire workers to run the tolls, bureaucracy to oversee them. These people are often [corrupt](http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/04/i-team-toll-collectors-caught-shortchanging-drivers-thousands-on-mass-pike/). The Golden Gate bridge no longer has human toll takers. When I go over one of the other bridges I never see a person - I go right through the toll gate with my FastTrak. Plus they have carpool lanes which you can use for a fee - again no people involved. So that problem is going away. > [@](#): > > Plus there’s the privacy issue. Why does the government need to know exactly who drives on a given road in a given day? Just take the money at the gas pump and be done with it. > > Now I’m hijacking my own thread. To quote Scott McNealy, you have no privacy. Get over it. if you don’t go over a bridge your friendly cop is collecting your license plate number as he goes past. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/44 "2015-01-31T01:30:44Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > In a recent column in the [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/charles-krauthammer-raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/2015/01/08/5b4b407c-976f-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html), Krauthammer argues that this is the perfect time to raise the gas tax. How about you leave things alone, the price of gas is still too excessive and should be 50 cents a gallon, but at least we are getting downward momentum. Its not your money, stop trying to pick people’s pockets Declan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/45 "2015-01-31T01:31:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, what are you doing with all the money that got put in your pocket due to the gas price collapse? Stimulating the economy. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/46 "2015-01-31T01:59:10Z")
Personally I’d prefer a carbon tax, as it is better targeted at the damage inflicted by carbon emissions, damages that the public evades. > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I oppose raising the gas tax because it is a regressive tax. It takes a larger chunk out of poorer people’s income, and poorer people often have to travel longer distances for employment. It is regressive, but perhaps not as much as you think. Car size tends to increase with income, so there’s an offset. Porterba, 1991: [INDENT]…low-expenditure households devote a smaller share of their budget to gasoline than do their counterparts in the middle of the expenditure distribution. Although households in the top5% of the total spending distribution spend less on gasoline than those who are less well off ,the share of expenditure devoted to gasoline is much more stable across the population than the ratio of gasoline outlays to current income. The gasoline tax thus appears far less regressive than conventional analyses suggest.[/INDENT] To review, Porterba looks at expenditures rather than income and finds the ratio of gas spending to consumption expenditure to be flat in the middle and lower at the two tails. But still regressive overall - just less so. Incidentally, the payroll tax places a lower burden on the highest brackets, so there’s an offset there. Though it would be crazy not to set aside some of the revenue for infrastructure. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/47 "2015-01-31T02:48:23Z")
An idea has been suggested here, that if you are for reducing global warming, or if you are an environmentalist, that naturally you should be for increasing the gas tax. But just because you’re for one thing does not mean that you have to also be for anything that supports the first. For instance, I’m all for ending famine, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to eat your children in order to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Sateryn76](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@Sateryn76](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sateryn76)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/48 "2015-01-31T02:52:20Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > As a self-employed business owner that racks up a lot of business miles which are already deductible, I strongly oppose this. Just more money out of my pocket. I’d like to see this addressed. I am a realtor, and there is no way to trim my “commute”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/49 "2015-01-31T03:01:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > As a self-employed business owner that racks up a lot of business miles which are already deductible, I strongly oppose this. Just more money out of my pocket. That’s what the folks said who got screwed by Obamacare, but that didn’t seem to bother you. Are you saying that if it’s good for the country, as a whole, you won’t support it unless it’s also good for, _personally_? As for the OP, I’m with those who say raise taxes slowly, if you must. Abrupt changes tend to have larger unintended consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/50 "2015-01-31T04:01:54Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > (Those with 2300-pound cars that get 8 mpg, like some people I will not name, are just SOL) Whom, exactly? 2,300lbs is very very light for a car and short of having a massive leak in the fuel line I don’t know how you’d use a gallon every 8 miles. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/51 "2015-01-31T04:21:26Z")
> [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](#): > > Whom, exactly? 2,300lbs is very very light for a car and short of having a massive leak in the fuel line I don’t know how you’d use a gallon every 8 miles. The leak is into 8 litres of displacement. Used to be 6 mpg, with a lot more stop and start driving. Fewer stop lights here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/52 "2015-01-31T04:49:09Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > To review, Porterba looks at expenditures rather than income and finds the ratio of gas spending to consumption expenditure to be flat in the middle and lower at the two tails. But still regressive overall - just less so. That’s from 1991. I wonder if it still true today. Your average Tesla owner is not low income. In my part of California, at least, there is status in high mileage cars. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/53 "2015-01-31T05:08:43Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > It would increase the tax burden on retirees who no longer pay FICA. Aww, those poor widdle bloodsuckers. Anything that screws retirees is OK in my book. Preferred, in fact. > [@DinoR](#): > > It would be regressive. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s not as regressive as most consumption taxes, but it’s still regressive. Good God, I’m sick of this argument. Hey, everybody, it looks like we can’t have roads and bridges that won’t kill you. I’m sorry, it’s just the way it is. The poor can’t afford to repair them. Look, we’re just going to have to let all the bridges fall down. It’s either that or make the poor pay for something, so I really don’t know what you expect me to do, here. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/54 "2015-01-31T06:31:30Z")
I have been in favor of much higher gas taxes for a while so I’m largely for this. I’m not sure how regressive this would be–it’s generally not poor people who own the large gas guzzlers. Plus it’s a tax that can be avoided (or at least lowered) by changing habits which can’t be said about income taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/55 "2015-01-31T15:59:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I don’t exploit the labor of the proletariat, so I wouldn’t know. Yes you do. Just increase prices, or reduce profits. You cannot relocate overseas, therefore you should be treated exactly like any other business - it is a simple matter of raising your taxes and transferring the money to the lower or working classes. They spend it and create jobs. You don’t create any jobs, since the success of your business is based on the infrastructure - in this case, roads. You ought to have your taxes raised, since you didn’t build your business. You are just like all the others - complaining about paying your fair share. _tsk tsk_ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/56 "2015-01-31T16:49:05Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Tolls for things like bridges are due to the fact that bridges are extremely expensive to build and maintain and generally have more limited capacity than surrounding roads, so we want to discourage their use more than we do for normal driving. The two mile commute may be more expensive in terms of infrastructure than the sixty mile one. And the prius and hummer probably cause roughly similar amounts of wear to bridges, and cause almost equal amounts of congestion. Sure. In theory, tolls could be placed strategically for logical and fair reasons. Back here in the real world, though, this doesn’t actually happen. In MA, the tolls on the turnpike were supposed to be taken down after the turnpike was paid for. Instead, Democratic politicians used the tolls to hit the western MA drivers who are mostly not their voters to pay for the Big Dig, which they would never use. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/57 "2015-01-31T16:51:15Z")
> [@Declan](#): > > How about you leave things alone, the price of gas is still too excessive and should be 50 cents a gallon, but at least we are getting downward momentum. > > Its not your money, stop trying to pick people’s pockets > > Declan Didn’t read the article or any of the posts in the thread, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/58 "2015-01-31T16:53:27Z")
> [@Sateryn76](#): > > I’d like to see this addressed. I am a realtor, and there is no way to trim my “commute”. I don’t think there’s any way to address this problem. Small business owners and truckers or delivery drivers would be hurt by this proposal no matter how you slice it. A small payroll tax break for them wouldn’t make up for the hit to gas prices they would have to pay. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/59 "2015-01-31T16:57:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > As for the OP, I’m with those who say raise taxes slowly, if you must. Abrupt changes tend to have larger unintended consequences. This isn’t a tax increase for most people, though. Most people will get back the money in their payroll tax. Some will pay more, some less. The only people having an abrupt change of any significance would be people who drive much more than average. I’m with you on making changes slowly in principal, though. But I’d argue that the benefits of this change outweigh the negatives. It’s sort of the same thing as simplification of the tax code. That might mean negative consequences if it’s abrupt. But it would be worth it because it’s so desperately needed. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335/60 "2015-01-31T17:03:19Z")
It would be a mistake to raise gas taxes to anything like UK levels. The US is much larger geographically. Drivers are required to drive further distances. The UK is a tiny little island. The amount of gas needed for your average UK road trip is a lot lot less. Similar gas tax rates in the US and UK would hurt US drivers substantially more. Generally im against taxes that penalise people for “bad behaviour”. However, if ever a larger tax was justified it is for UK drivers. Your average road, car and parking lot does relatively more damage to little ole UK than it does to the US. The UK is one large parking lot. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raise-the-gas-tax-a-lot/711335.md?page=4)