# Raising a genderless child from birth **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 8, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013 "2018-04-08T04:17:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/21 "2018-04-08T12:58:30Z")
Unfortunately, the kid is likely to be several years old before they’re old enough to realize there isn’t necessarily a one-on-one correlation between sex and gender, and I worry that these parents will inadvertently end up sending a different, and very strong, message to their children than they intend to. Shrouding the child’s sex in secrecy seems like a really good way to convince a kid that being their biological sex is so **shameful** no one should be it, or at the very least no one should know that you are this unfortunate sex. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/22 "2018-04-08T13:42:54Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How will this work once they start playing with other children? > [@](#): > > Before you do something, you should first ask if you can do it, if you may do it, and if you should do it… in that order. These parents seem to have skipped over the first question, leaving the second and third irrelevant. That was pretty much my thought. The moment the child walks into a school, children are going to identify them as male or female, even if the teachers are under orders to keep it a “secret”, and they will tell the child. Although I assume the child would have realized by this point anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/23 "2018-04-08T14:22:27Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > The idea wasn’t so much that no one should have a gender, as “Your gender should not dictate your interests, goals, friends, etc.” Truer words never spoken. Don’t deny the difference between genders. Rather, show that the difference isn’t a _controlling_ one. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/24 "2018-04-08T14:30:27Z")
I think that if we lived in a genderless utopia this would be a fine way to go, but unfortunately we do not. Today, and probably for at least another generation, it is far easier to live in our society if your genitals match your gender. So all else being equal the child will probably be better off with a gender that matches societies notions. So I don’t have much of a problem with leading a child towards this notion of gender identity as a default, while leaving the alternatives open and keeping an eye out for any indication that this notion makes the child uncomfortable. It is very likely the the infrequency of transgenderism is due to a large extent by binary child rearing practices, but it is also clear that for the vast majority of people following their biological gender was the correct answer or else close enough to the correct answer that the divergence doesn’t case them stress, and so given the current societal disadvantages of transgenderism was probably the best choice. I approve of the goals of the parents, and if this was simply an experiment they chose for themselves, or an idealized goal they wished to promote I would salute them. But since there is a child at the center of this who could have their lives altered by its consequences, and whom was unable to give consent, the exercise strikes me as ethically dubious. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/25 "2018-04-08T15:24:12Z")
I’m going to make a prediction that despite everything those parents do, a large percentage of the children are going to gravitate towards “stereotypical” toys. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/26 "2018-04-08T17:24:17Z")
For those who didn’t actually read the article, the parents aren’t trying to raise kids to be genderless their entire lives but until the child “chooses.” Also, the article points out the parents send their “gender-free” kids to very expensive progressive daycares and pre-schools. If the child still hasn’t decided on a gender by age 5-6, they’d presumably send them to very expensive progressive grade schools. Regardless of the parents’ plans, [sociology and psychology](https://www.education.com/reference/article/friendship-gender-preschool-childhood/) will out: > [@](#): > > There is no doubt that gender segregation exists. In fact, it is nearly universal, occurring in every cultural setting in which researchers have observed children selecting playmates (Fabes, Martin, & Hanish, 2003; Whiting & Edwards, 1988). > … > By 2 to 3 years of age, children are beginning to show a clear preference for playing with other children of their own sex (Serbin, Moller, Gulko, Powlishta, & Colburne, 1994) ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/27 "2018-04-08T17:34:44Z")
If Zoomer is biologically a female, her gender is gonna show up around the age 13 or so. When the parent has to go buy that box of kotex they’re gonna have some 'splainin to do. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/28 "2018-04-08T17:58:48Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > They can raise the kid genderless all they want, but I don’t believe gender can be eliminated by fiat. I don’t think gender will ever disappear from humanity. All we can do is mitigate the strictures of society around it and let people find their own level. A few folks do honestly wind up nonbinary, but most are going to settle on one side or the other. > > This parenting plan could turn out either benign or detrimental, depending. If starting from a neutral place, the child can find their own gender setting, then they can settle into where they feel right with a minimum of the fuss and bother that accompanies society’s pressure to mold a person into predefined gender roles. But if the parents rigidly insist on nonbinary as the only allowable option, it will wind up harming the kid as much as any trans kid is harmed by being forced into the wrong gender. > [@nelliebly](#): > > Regardless of the parents’ plans, [sociology and psychology](https://www.education.com/reference/article/friendship-gender-preschool-childhood/) will out: I feel like this is the big thing they don’t want to acknowledge: that gender is predetermined and no amount of kooky, gender neutral (or “gender open”) parenting is going to reverse fate. It’s more likely than not that their kids will identify with the gender that matches their sex, but they may come out of the whole ordeal slightly screwed up, especially if they’re subject to bullying thanks to their parents’ penchant for taking special snowflakeism to the extreme. It doesn’t help at all that they’re chronicling their children’s upbringing online for all to see. These kids aren’t even afforded the right to figure out their gender identity in private, they’re being treated as science experiments. I’m not totally convinced that these parents have their kids’ best interests at heart. Another thing I have a major gripe with, they say that gender is a man-made construct and suggest that gender can be chosen. So they’re effectively saying that trans people are choosing to be trans, that their gender identity isn’t innate. I wonder if they understand the implications of their statements, since they claim to be allies for the trans community. > [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Trans people themselves are the most transphobic humans on the planet. It’s their own intolerantly rigid and absolutely binary view of gender roles that leads them to mutilate themselves. If they had one ounce themselves of the acceptance they ask from others, the mutilations would be unnecessary. Er… everything about this post is infinitely more transphobic than what you’re describing. I have a few bones to pick with the current trans movement, but calling sex reassignment surgery “mutilation” makes you sound like the very people who are seeking to deprive them of basic civil rights. > [@Beckdawrek](#): > > If Zoomer is biologically a female, her gender is gonna show up around the age 13 or so. When the parent has to go buy that box of kotex they’re gonna have some 'splainin to do. They’ll probably just say “some people bleed and have breasts, some people don’t. You’re one of those that do”. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/29 "2018-04-08T18:46:03Z")
Don’t have kids yet, but I expect our approach to gender and sex will be to have something like the following attitude (imagined as something we might say to our future kids): Some kids are born with [equipment X] and most folks call those kids girls, and some kids are born with [equipment Y] and most folks call those kids boys. And some other kids have both, or some variations. You have [x or y] and so you’ll usually be identified as boy/girl by people in society. Some people at some point start to think that maybe they’re really girls instead of boys, or boys instead of girls, so it’s okay to talk to us if you start to have thoughts like that. There’s nothing wrong with having feelings like that, and also nothing wrong if you’re happy with the way you are and what people call you. ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/30 "2018-04-08T18:46:36Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Are you under the impression that all trans people have surgery? If so, that’s an incorrect notion. No, I know not everyone has surgery, or wants it. The principle is still the same. Trans people are simply unwilling to accept that a person who feels the way they feel, might have the body they have. That’s gender-binary thinking at its harshest and most discriminatory, yet because it’s self-directed they somehow feel entitled to demand a free pass to discriminate against themselves and shame themselves. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/31 "2018-04-08T18:48:50Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > No, I know not everyone has surgery, or wants it. The principle is still the same. Trans people are simply unwilling to accept that a person who feels the way they feel, might have the body they have. That’s gender-binary thinking at its harshest and most discriminatory, yet because it’s self-directed they somehow feel entitled to demand a free pass to discriminate against themselves and shame themselves. Huh? Can you read the minds of every trans person? This sounds like bigoted nonsense. Trans people have a variety of opinions about themselves and others. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/32 "2018-04-08T18:56:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Don’t have kids yet, but I expect our approach to gender and sex will be to have something like the following attitude (imagined as something we might say to our future kids): > > Some kids are born with [equipment X] and most folks call those kids girls, and some kids are born with [equipment Y] and most folks call those kids boys. And some other kids have both, or some variations. You have [x or y] and so you’ll usually be identified as boy/girl by people in society. Some people at some point start to think that maybe they’re really girls instead of boys, or boys instead of girls, so it’s okay to talk to us if you start to have thoughts like that. There’s nothing wrong with having feelings like that, and also nothing wrong if you’re happy with the way you are and what people call you. At what point in the child’s life do you imagine having this conversation? Because I can tell you, as a parent of both an X and Y, there is almost never a time, no matter what you imagine the experience will be like, when you would even think of having that conversation under traditional gender role development circumstances. And why the hell would you??.. UNLESS and of course, the child starts giving you a reason to have that conversation. In which case, yeah, you absolutely should. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/33 "2018-04-08T18:57:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > At what point in the child’s life do you imagine having this conversation? Because I can tell you, as a parent of both an X and Y, there is almost never a time, no matter what you imagine the experience will be like, when you would even think of having that conversation. UNLESS, the child starts giving you a reason to have that conversation. In which case, yeah, you absolutely should. Probably the first time it comes up (or could come up) – if they see a non-passing trans person and ask, of course, or even if we see one on TV and I ask them about it, or if the subject comes up some other way. At least, that’s what I envision… I’m sure that many things I envision about parenthood will change once we actually have kids. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/34 "2018-04-08T19:01:36Z")
FWIW, I think you’ll make a great parent. But yeah, you’re in for a fun ride. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/35 "2018-04-08T19:50:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > FWIW, I think you’ll make a great parent. But yeah, you’re in for a fun ride. Well thank you! I certainly am looking forward to it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/36 "2018-04-08T20:14:12Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > At what point in the child’s life do you imagine having this conversation? Because I can tell you, as a parent of both an X and Y, there is almost never a time, no matter what you imagine the experience will be like, when you would even think of having that conversation under traditional gender role development circumstances. And why the hell would you??.. UNLESS and of course, the child starts giving you a reason to have that conversation. In which case, yeah, you absolutely should. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Probably the first time it comes up (or could come up) – if they see a non-passing trans person and ask, of course, or even if we see one on TV and I ask them about it, or if the subject comes up some other way. At least, that’s what I envision… I’m sure that many things I envision about parenthood will change once we actually have kids. Personal anecdote: Back in the 1980s when I was probably no more than three years old, I saw a morning talk show with singer Boy George as a guest. I apparently misunderstood what the host was calling him, and concluded that there was a type of androgynous-looking person called a “boy girl”. My mother says that for several weeks afterward I would mention that I had seen a “boy girl” on TV, or even that there were three kinds of people in the world: boys, girls, and “boy girls”. I have no memory of any of this, and when my mother told me this story when I was an adult I got the impression that she didn’t attempt any sort of explanation of gender at the time. Knowing her, she probably just went “Uh huh” whenever I mentioned “boy girls” and waited for me to forget about it (which I did). But while not all parents choose to pursue such opportunities for conversation, they did sometimes arise even 30+ years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/37 "2018-04-08T20:26:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Buck Godot** : > > It is very likely the the infrequency of transgenderism is due to a large extent by binary child rearing practices… I would actually expect the reverse, that if it weren’t for binary expectations in society as a whole, that transgenderism wouldn’t be a thing. What gets referred to as “gender” isn’t any one thing, and even the most masculine man or the most feminine woman has some traits which are more typically associated with the opposite gender. But our society forces (or at least, tries to force) people to be one or the other, and so some people end up identifying themselves as one while society identifies them as the other, instead of everyone just being many-dimensional shades of in between. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/38 "2018-04-08T20:51:34Z")
I wonder how what the parents would do if the child demonstrates distinct gendered behaviour. My boy is about 2, very pretty though with long hair so a lot of people initially assume he’s a girl. But when he plays with things, it’s all cars & trains & robots that interest him, my wife’s pushed some dolls on him and he’ll play for 10 minutes then a bus goes in the pram and the doll maybe gets crashed into by cars until it’s forgotten. We definitely gave him a mix of non-gender toys and never pushed boyishness on him, would these parents punish the child for not conforming to their wacky ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/39 "2018-04-08T21:15:58Z")
I think that poor [David Reimer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer) was proof that gender indentity is NOT a choice we make. I also fear that in the race to be accepting (which is a good thing) we are swinging too far and putting too many labels on everyone, rather than just saying, “hey, you can be X and still do Y”. Or, just plain, “hey, whatever floats your boat.” I mean, I honestly do not give a shit what you call yourself. But it’s when you try to define others that gives me pause. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2018, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013/40 "2018-04-08T21:51:36Z")
> [@Delicious](#): > > ``` > I wonder how what the parents would do if the child demonstrates distinct gendered behaviour. My boy is about 2, very pretty though with long hair so a lot of people initially assume he's a girl. > > ``` > > But when he plays with things, it’s all cars & trains & robots that interest him, my wife’s pushed some dolls on him and he’ll play for 10 minutes then a bus goes in the pram and the doll maybe gets crashed into by cars until it’s forgotten. > > We definitely gave him a mix of non-gender toys and never pushed boyishness on him, would these parents punish the child for not conforming to their wacky ideas? This is covered by [the article](https://www.thecut.com/2018/04/theybies-gender-creative-parenting.html), which many of the people in this thread seem not to have read. These parents do seem kind of wacky to me, but they’re nowhere near as wacky as some people here are making them out to be. They’re not limiting their kids to only gender-neutral toys and clothes or insisting that they will never, ever be identified as boys or girls. They are exposing their kids to a variety of toys, clothes, and activities and waiting for them to declare their own gender identity, which they expect will probably happen before the kids are old enough for kindergarten. > [@The Cut article](#): > > The point was not to have a genderless child but one who comes to an understanding of their gender — whatever it might be — in an environment where colors and objects and activities are not slotted into the arbitrary and binary categories of “girl” and “boy,” and the concepts of “girl” and “boy” are not set up in opposition to each other. “We were just like, ‘Let’s make it look like a rainbow exploded in this house,’ ” Myers explains of wanting to provide [2-year-old] Zoomer with all available options, rather than limiting options to those deemed to be gender neutral. […] “Zoomer is going to have a gender,” Myers says. “They are going to let us know what their gender is, and it will probably happen when they’re 3 or 4. And we can all just get onboard, you know.” > [@The Cut article](#): > > If people ask if [baby] Sojourner is a boy or a girl, Fleishman explains, they say something to the effect of: “We’re going to let them decide how they identify when they’re ready.” The two older children (ages 7 and 13) mentioned in the article both identify as girls and their parents seem fine with this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-a-genderless-child-from-birth/812013.md?page=3)